What's representing myself about in my divorce

D

Doug Johnson

New Member
Jurisdiction
Arizona
In a nutshell, I'm going to slowly run out of money for lawyers. I'm happy so far with their work but man is it expensive.

The case: selling house will net about 135,000 each. I'm asking for around 30000 from my contributions to her 401k. We already split up property, personal, etc. The sticking point is that she wants support. Okay, so I get VA Disability (3900 bucks)and in Arizona VA Disability cannot be included in the support schedule to determine support. So my income is around 2300 SS. She gets 1850 SS but she wants support. My reaction is "You have 300,000 in your k. You are set up." She won't give support up and I'm sure the court will have to go to trial on that.

I'm smart enough to represent myself . . . I have three degrees in three different fields and can still study. Can I do it and where could I get advice and help that'd cost less.
 
Why are you only asking for $30,000 from her 401(k) if she has $300,000 in it? You're entitled to half in AZ, a community property state.

When I got divorced (in AZ) my wife had $400,000 in her 401(k). I got $200,000. I had $30,000 in my 401(k) and she got $15,000.

Do you know what a QDRO is?
 
She contributed from 1974 to 2010 while we were married 2001 to 2010 so I think I get one half or there abouts of the contribution while we were married which I estimate is around 30,000. I looked up QDRO and I still don't know what it is. If you could explain briefly how it might apply here I'd appreciate it.

I'm asking about representing myself because I've seen how fast these costs go up. Alternatively, I could ask my lawyer to petition the court to have my ex pay or partially pay for my lawyer, or arrange for the proceeds of the house sale with a lien on it for attorney fees, or some kind of repayment schedule. I'm retired and net about 4000 a month so could make those kind of payments to him/her. I just paid out another 2,500 bucks for preparation for some virtual meeting to resolve issues that can be resolved like I got the car . . she dosn't care, she got some furniture, splitting up bank accounts. Its just that she has always wanted a portion of my retirement whether SS or my VA Disability and I don't tbhink she will give up until it goes to trial.
 
Doug Johnson said:
She contributed from 1974 to 2010 while we were married 2001 to 2010 so I think I get one half or there abouts of the contribution while we were married which I estimate is around 30,000.
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Her earnings, during marriage, were community property. Contributions to her 401(k) were made with community funds. Making them into the same account as she had before marriage can be seen as comingling which could make the entire account community property. Run that by your lawyer. The threat of having to share the whole account may be enough to get her to back off the support demand.

Doug Johnson said:
I looked up QDRO and I still don't know what it is. If you could explain briefly how it might apply here I'd appreciate it.
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A QDRO (Qualified Domestic Relations Order) is a device approved by the IRS to allow qualified plans like IRAs and 401(k)s to be divided into separate accounts that don't incur any tax liability. The employer/custodian of the employee's account creates a second 401(k) account for the non-employee into which the non-employee's share is transferred "in kind." Nothing gets sold so no taxable gain. After the new 401(k) is created you can roll it over into your own IRA, also with no tax liability. Make sure your lawyer knows what a QDRO is and how to write one. It should be prepared concurrently with the divorce decree and filed with the court at the same time and then served on her employer or custodian of the account.

Doug Johnson said:
I'm asking about representing myself because I've seen how fast these costs go up.
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It's not easy. I represented myself during my divorce. I worked Tuesday through Saturday and spent many Mondays, for a year, at the Superior Court's law library in central Phoenix.
 
Representing yourself in this kind of matter puts you at a disadvantage if she has a divorce lawyer representing her. You'd need to learn the state's rules of evidence, rules of procedure, how to do procedural things like drafting motions, and of course you need to know the law that applies, including the court decisions on support orders in divorce. You may be able to learn all that if there is enough time before the issue goes to trial to better match the attorney. Being smart isn't good enough. A smart person who doesn't know the rules and customs that apply to litigation generally doesn't come out very well against a seasoned trial lawyer. It's not easy to to learn all the things you need to know, especially with self learning. It takes considerable amount of time to do all that, and you might not have the time you need to do it.

If you can't afford the attorney, there are other possible ways to get low free or low cost legal help. Fortunately for you, the CA court system covers that very issue on its internet site. See the article Get free or low-cost legal help
 
Doug Johnson said:
In a nutshell, I'm going to slowly run out of money for lawyers. I'm happy so far with their work but man is it expensive.
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There are also flat fee attorneys where you can get the price of their work up front once you explain the complexities of the divorce.

Search for flat fee divorce attorneys in your local area. The cost I see for Arizonia online varies from $1,500 to $3,000.
 
welkin said:
There are also flat fee attorneys where you can get the price of their work up front once you explain the complexities of the divorce.

Search for flat fee divorce attorneys in your local area. The cost I see for Arizonia online varies from $1,500 to $3,000.
Click to expand...

Lawyers are much more likely to be willing to do it as a flat fee when the divorce is uncontested because that situation makes it much easier to know how much time and effort will be needed to do it. It's mostly paperwork with perhaps a couple short short perfunctory hearings.

A contested divorce makes it much harder for the lawyer to predict what he or she will have to do on the case. I don't see any divorce attorney agreeing to do a contested divorce for only $3,000. If I was going to do that kind of case on a flat fee, I'd estimate the total fee in the higher range of what I think is likely to be sure I don't do work for cheap. I think most other attorneys would do that as well. That's why in litigation flat fees are not all that common (outside of large publicly traded corporations who pay law firms a lot of money in a flat fee for all legal work the company needs; publicly traded corporations want predictability in their costs and are willing to pay to get it).
 
Tax Counsel said:
Lawyers are much more likely to be willing to do it as a flat fee when the divorce is uncontested because that situation makes it much easier to know how much time and effort will be needed to do it.
Click to expand...
Why do you think the divorce is contested if the only issue is support? That doesn't necessarily mean that it can't be worked out without a trial.
Doug Johnson said:
We already split up property, personal, etc. The sticking point is that she wants support.
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Doug Johnson said:
She won't give support up and I'm sure the court will have to go to trial on that.
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Doug Johnson said:
Its just that she has always wanted a portion of my retirement whether SS or my VA Disability and I don't tbhink she will give up until it goes to trial.
Click to expand...
Does your soon to be X know that she will be able to collect spousal SS from your enrings account it she is of retirement age? She could receive as much as 50% of what you receive (without reducing you your benefit) if she meets the requirements. I think SS pays the greater amount if she is already receiving SS.

I'm confident that TM will fill in the blanks.

You should also talk to your lawyer about giving her some lump-sum payment (according to actuarial tables for a short period of support time) if you can swing it. That way, you would not be tied to her with support payments, and you wouldn't need to go to trial. You have to consider what could work for you.
 
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welkin said:
Why do you think the divorce is contested if the only issue is support?
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By definition, if there is an "issue," then the divorce is contested. Sure, it may be settled at a future time, but that is where the unpredictability comes in. If the divorce was not contested, then there would only be paperwork, filing, and possibly a hearing (or hearings), but those are well-defined.
 

Understanding and Calculating Alimony in Washington

Learn how judges make decisions on alimony in Washington, and whether you can change a maintenance award later.

By Joseph Pandolfi, Retired Judge


Alimony (called "maintenance" in Washington) is intended to provide some financial assistance for a spouse who may need it during the divorce process and for a period of time after the final divorce. If you or your spouse is (or will be) requesting alimony as part of the process of filing for divorce in Washington, you should understand how maintenance works and how judges make alimony decisions—even if you hope to reach an agreement on the issue and avoid a trial (more on that below).

Are There Different Types of Alimony in Washington?

Washington law provides for only two types of alimony:
  • temporary maintenance while the divorce case is in progress, and
  • maintenance for a certain period of time after the divorce is final.
That said, a spouse's misconduct might play a role in a maintenance award if it affected the other spouse's need for alimony—for instance, if domestic violence has caused ongoing harm to a spouse's physical or mental condition, and thus hinders that spouse's ability to make a living.

Who Pays Alimony?

Either spouse may request alimony, regardless of gender. Typically, if one spouse needs financial help and the other can afford to pay it, the judge will order the higher-earning spouse to pay alimony to the lower-earning spouse.

How Is Maintenance Paid and Enforced?

Most maintenance awards call for periodic payments (typically monthly or every two weeks), but there are different ways of making those payments, depending in part on whether the couple has dependent children.

  • When there's also a child support order in the case, the paying spouse must send both the maintenance and child support payments to the Washington State Support Registry, unless the judge has approved the spouses' agreement for an alternate arrangement.
  • If the couple doesn't have any dependent children, the judge may order that the maintenance payments go either directly to the receiving spouse or to the court clerk, who will then forward the money to the receiving spouse.
(Wash. Rev. Code § 26.09.120 (2023).)

If your spouse isn't meeting the court-ordered payment schedule, you may ask the court to enforce the maintenance order by filing a formal motion (written legal request). You can request an order that payments be withheld from your spouse's wages. You might also request that a judge hold your spouse in contempt of court, which could result in substantial fines or even jail time for the delinquent spouse.

How Long Does Alimony Last in Washington?

Temporary alimony ends when the divorce is finalized. The divorce decree will state when other alimony awards will end.

Unless both spouses agree in writing, or the divorce decree states otherwise, any spousal maintainence will end when:

  • either spouse dies, or
  • the receiving spouse remarries or registers a new domestic partnership.
(Wash. Rev. Code § 26.09.170(2) (2023).)

How to Modify Alimony in Washington

Either spouse may ask the court to modify or terminate spousal maintenance, unless the couple had a written agreement providing otherwise (more on that below). But in order to succeed with a modification request, a spouse must be able to prove that there's been a substantial change of circumstances, such as involuntary loss of a job or an income increase. (Wash. Rev. Code § 26.09.170(1)(b) (2023).)

Be aware that in most situations, unless you and your spouse have an agreement about the proposed changes, alimony modification proceedings involve complicated legal issues that are best handled by an experienced family law attorney.

Taxes and Alimony

If your divorce was final before 2019, the paying spouse may continue to deduct alimony payments for purposes of federal income taxes, and the receiving spouse must report those payments as income. However, for all couples who divorced after 2018, the federal Tax Cuts and Jobs Act eliminated any tax deduction or income reporting requirements for alimony. That means the Internal Revenue Service won't count these payments as income for the recipient, and the paying spouse won't get the deduction.

Alimony Agreements, Mediation, and Legal Help

As with all other issues in your divorce, you and your spouse always have the option of reaching a settlement agreement (known as a "separation contract" in Washington) that addresses whether one of you will pay alimony and, if so, how much the payments will be and how long they will last.

If you're having trouble agreeing, divorce mediation might help you resolve your differences. And if you're hesitant about negotiating a compromise, it may help to know that going to trial increases the cost of divorce exponentially, as well as making the process more stressful and take longer.

But if you haven't been able to reach an agreement even after mediation, you will probably need an experienced family law attorney to protect your interests and help you navigate your divorce. Here are some tips on meeting with potential lawyers and questions you should ask.



Understanding and Calculating Alimony in Washington

Learn how judges make decisions on alimony in Washington—whether to award maintenance, how much, and for how long—and whether you can change an award later.
www.divorcenet.com www.divorcenet.com


www.survivedivorce.com

Determining Alimony in Washington State | Survive Divorce

An overview of Washington State alimony laws and how judges determine spousal support.
www.survivedivorce.com www.survivedivorce.com


www.divorceandfinance.org

Alimony Washington State: Who Gets Spousal Maintenance During Divorce?

Alimony Washington State can be awarded to equalize incomes among divorcing spouses. Read this article to learn who can get it and how it is determined.
www.divorceandfinance.org
 
welkin said:
Why do you think the divorce is contested if the only issue is support? That doesn't necessarily mean that it can't be worked out without a trial.
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Because any issue on which parties do not agree is, by definition, contested. If they are battling over support, then the lawyer has a much harder time predicting just how much work will be needed because he/she does not know how long, how much work, and what expenses to expect before there is a resolution to it.. Certainly if they do come to an agreement before trial then at that point it is no longer contested. But while the parties are battling it out it is clearly a contested matter. I have a meeting to get to, but I may come back with further comments for the OP later.
 
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Tax Counsel said:
Because any issue on which parties do not agree is, by definition, contested.
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Exactly. All it takes is one sticking point.

I had 2. So it went to trial. And my ex represented himself. It did not go well for him. And my ex is smarter than OP.

So, if something is a sticking point, make sure that 1) you're on the right side of that sticking point, and 2) it's worth sticking.

One of my sticking points was child support, which was a no brainer because my state requires something more than $0. I don't know the particulars of your situation, and spousal support in much different from child support. You should look up what is standard, and calculate whether $ wise you come out ahead more by negotiating or fighting head to head.
 
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adjusterjack said:
Her earnings, during marriage, were community property. Contributions to her 401(k) were made with community funds. Making them into the same account as she had before marriage can be seen as comingling which could make the entire account community property. Run that by your lawyer. The threat of having to share the whole account may be enough to get her to back off the support demand.



A QDRO (Qualified Domestic Relations Order) is a device approved by the IRS to allow qualified plans like IRAs and 401(k)s to be divided into separate accounts that don't incur any tax liability. The employer/custodian of the employee's account creates a second 401(k) account for the non-employee into which the non-employee's share is transferred "in kind." Nothing gets sold so no taxable gain. After the new 401(k) is created you can roll it over into your own IRA, also with no tax liability. Make sure your lawyer knows what a QDRO is and how to write one. It should be prepared concurrently with the divorce decree and filed with the court at the same time and then served on her employer or custodian of the account.



It's not easy. I represented myself during my divorce. I worked Tuesday through Saturday and spent many Mondays, for a year, at the Superior Court's law library in central Phoenix.
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Oh . . . okay, so it's not just . . . oh boy. Thanks for all the information. I'm gonna have to do more reading. You have been so helpful. Thanks:) So especially, when I get my part of the 401k, just roll it over!
 
Tax Counsel said:
Representing yourself in this kind of matter puts you at a disadvantage if she has a divorce lawyer representing her. You'd need to learn the state's rules of evidence, rules of procedure, how to do procedural things like drafting motions, and of course you need to know the law that applies, including the court decisions on support orders in divorce. You may be able to learn all that if there is enough time before the issue goes to trial to better match the attorney. Being smart isn't good enough. A smart person who doesn't know the rules and customs that apply to litigation generally doesn't come out very well against a seasoned trial lawyer. It's not easy to to learn all the things you need to know, especially with self learning. It takes considerable amount of time to do all that, and you might not have the time you need to do it.

If you can't afford the attorney, there are other possible ways to get low free or low cost legal help. Fortunately for you, the CA court system covers that very issue on its internet site. See the article Get free or low-cost legal help
Click to expand...
Thanks for the information. I'm 76 yo and I don't really think I have enough energy to do that by myself. So thanks.
 
welkin said:
There are also flat fee attorneys where you can get the price of their work up front once you explain the complexities of the divorce.

Search for flat fee divorce attorneys in your local area. The cost I see for Arizonia online varies from $1,500 to $3,000.
Click to expand...
I had no idea . . . flat fee attorney. Thanks very much.
 
Tax Counsel said:
Lawyers are much more likely to be willing to do it as a flat fee when the divorce is uncontested because that situation makes it much easier to know how much time and effort will be needed to do it. It's mostly paperwork with perhaps a couple short short perfunctory hearings.

A contested divorce makes it much harder for the lawyer to predict what he or she will have to do on the case. I don't see any divorce attorney agreeing to do a contested divorce for only $3,000. If I was going to do that kind of case on a flat fee, I'd estimate the total fee in the higher range of what I think is likely to be sure I don't do work for cheap. I think most other attorneys would do that as well. That's why in litigation flat fees are not all that common (outside of large publicly traded corporations who pay law firms a lot of money in a flat fee for all legal work the company needs; publicly traded corporations want predictability in their costs and are willing to pay to get it).
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Thanks. I could easily afford the flat fee you mentioned. Thank you!
 
welkin said:
Why do you think the divorce is contested if the only issue is support? That doesn't necessarily mean that it can't be worked out without a trial.



Does your soon to be X know that she will be able to collect spousal SS from your enrings account it she is of retirement age? She could receive as much as 50% of what you receive (without reducing you your benefit) if she meets the requirements. I think SS pays the greater amount if she is already receiving SS.

I'm confident that TM will fill in the blanks.

You should also talk to your lawyer about giving her some lump-sum payment (according to actuarial tables for a short period of support time) if you can swing it. That way, you would not be tied to her with support payments, and you wouldn't need to go to trial. You have to consider what could work for you.
Click to expand...
I don't think she knows about collecting SS as part of my spousal ss benefits as you suggest unless her lawyer mentioned it to her.

I'd love to talk over with her her options, but an ongoing block to communication with her is that once she gets an idea, she sticks with it even though its really wacky. For example, she said she is not worried about owls getting our very small dogs because she can "her them." Ya . . . every, literally everyone I've mentioned this to comments right away, "But owls are known as silent killers because . . . ya can't here them fly."

But I very much appreciate the point and will possibly try and talk with her about that.

I have nicknamed her the Amazon Python woman because discussing let alone arguing with her is like I imagine wrestling an Amazon Python would be. I'd respect her if she had a rational knowledgeable position and defended it . . .. but
 
Red Kayak said:
Exactly. All it takes is one sticking point.

I had 2. So it went to trial. And my ex represented himself. It did not go well for him. And my ex is smarter than OP.

So, if something is a sticking point, make sure that 1) you're on the right side of that sticking point, and 2) it's worth sticking.

One of my sticking points was child support, which was a no brainer because my state requires something more than $0. I don't know the particulars of your situation, and spousal support in much different from child support. You should look up what is standard, and calculate whether $ wise you come out ahead more by negotiating or fighting head to head.
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I've used the spousal support schedule for Arizona and the spousal support came back 0. In Arizona VA Disability payments are not includable in the spousal support calcs. So basically, it my ss 2300 vs her ss 1800 where hers is admittedly less but can she demonstrate a need for spousal support. I am not sure but I doubt it . . . since she has her 401k and the money she will get from selling our house. And thanks so very much for your comment. It helps a lot just to talk or in this case text with someone about this
 
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