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Vaccine Mandate and Employment Issues

Discussion in 'Employment, Labor, Work Issues' started by Redemptionman, Oct 12, 2021 at 11:15 AM.

  1. Redemptionman

    Redemptionman Law Topic Starter Active Member

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    This is not really a question for me as I have been vaccinated. Can an employer force a mandate for vaccination upon its employees? then compile a database of non vaccinated employees and then compel them to either get vaccinated or show a non vaccinated cause via religion or other means.

    I do not want this to turn into a debate on vaccination verse non vaccination but a debate on employment issues as it relates to the sensitive subject of vaccinations. Can employers force this and then fire employees who do not comply legally? I am familiar with Southwest airlines but a mandate that forces employees to either do this or face termination is rather rigid and reeks of communism/ dictatorship. I purposefully left the state blank as most large companies are international and do business in all states and multiple countries.
     
  2. zddoodah

    zddoodah Well-Known Member

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    Define "force."

    Are you asking if an employer can physically restrain an employee for the purpose of administering a vaccine?

    Please clarify what this question means.

    Again, define "compel."

    Huh?

    No court has yet said otherwise.

    Huh? Communism is an economic system involving distribution of wealth. And a dictatorship is a form of government.
     
  3. PayrollHRGuy

    PayrollHRGuy Well-Known Member

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    I don't know what you exactly mean by this part but employers keep data on people they fire/suspend all the time.

    Yes they can require their employees to be vaxed.

    If by compel you mean allow them to continue to work, yes
     
  4. Redemptionman

    Redemptionman Law Topic Starter Active Member

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    force/ compel, do this or be fired. No physical constraints other than I will walk from my job/ position if I do not get vaccinated. I got vaccinated because I choose too, not someone forcing me to get the shot. I did this of my own free will and before any government mandate or company wide enforcement. Other employees who do not want to get the shot or refuse it can be terminated or forced to walk from their positions. I would say some employees will walk from their jobs and these are high paying tech positions. It could be career ending like the doctor who the hospital escorted out for non compliance.

    As far as the other, do not play games. The fact that a government can force their citizens to get a vaccination or suffer social/ professional sanctions doesn't look like a democracy to me.
     
  5. army judge

    army judge Super Moderator

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    The gubmint isn't FORCING it's citizens to do anything, YET!

    The gubmint as currently constituted is mandating that employers with 100 or MORE employees require their employees to take the jabs.

    If the employer refuses, the employer will allegedly be sanctioned by OSHA (the gubmint's enforcer in the instant matter at hand) financially.

    The gubmint appears to be mandating that IT'S employees take the jabs, or their employment will be terminated.

    The good/bad news is that this issue will eventually be litigated before the courts.

    Will the gubmint mandates stand?

    We'll have to wait to know.

    Complex legal disputes take a long time to try.

    Judges or juries will also need more time to decide, nevertheless, due process will eventually play out.

    Sooner, more likely later, we'll all know what the courts decide.

    In the meantime, the vaccine remains available for all who choose to seek it.

    The path of least resistance usually is the wisest choice.
     
  6. justblue

    justblue Well-Known Member

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    One could always move to Texas. Apparently Abbott thinks he has the AUTHORITAH (Cartman) to dictate what requirements a private business may have for employment in their company.
     
    stealthy1 likes this.
  7. hrforme

    hrforme Active Member

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    Just a quick note...while OSHA has been directed to do something, as far as I know, they have not yet set any guidelines or enforcement actions. Instead, another two EOs were written for federal employees and federal contractors after that direction. Both have religious and medical accommodation "outs" and as of now, federal contractors do not have to weekly test unless the federal agency requires it (which they might).

    I am going to be very interested as to whether OSHA ever issues anything directly.

    But to answer the original question, yes it can be mandated, but employers have to make accommodations unless there is a BFOQ or they can prove undue hardship.

    The EEOC has stated this in May 2021 :
    What You Should Know About COVID-19 and the ADA, the Rehabilitation Act, and Other EEO Laws | U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission Section K is helpful…..questions 5-7 and then 12 for the religious aspect of the whole issue which is what i was searching for....but there is also info there on medical/ADA issues....
     
  8. zddoodah

    zddoodah Well-Known Member

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    So...your real question is whether an employer may legally fire an employee who refuses to get a vaccine. The answer to that question, thus far, appears to be yes. However, as I'm sure you can imagine, this is a hot button issue, and I'm sure there are cases in the system in which this very issue is being hotly litigated.
     
  9. army judge

    army judge Super Moderator

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    My good friend, that is NOT what Governor Abbott is doing, or attempting to do.

    No need for this dummy to elaborate further.

    You are certainly free to draw any conclusions you deduce.

    You and I are still blessed to be citizens of the greatest and freest nation in the known universe.
     
  10. Redemptionman

    Redemptionman Law Topic Starter Active Member

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    Right, it would suck if I took the stance or chance of losing my job just because I choose not to get a vaccine. I assume this is why the black market cards are being sold and people are committing fraud in order to skate this requirement.

    Sad state of affairs but you see football stadiums full and concerts coming back. I just do not see what the big deal is in putting a mandate in place now.
     
  11. zddoodah

    zddoodah Well-Known Member

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    I thought you didn't want to turn this into a debate about vaccination?
     
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  12. Redemptionman

    Redemptionman Law Topic Starter Active Member

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    I didn't want to turn it into a political one as well, but we see how that worked out. I guess this might be why the job numbers look bad. Some people would rather quit work than be told to and have to get a shot.
     
  13. Zigner

    Zigner Well-Known Member

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    Please
     
  14. cbg

    cbg Super Moderator

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    At the present time no law exists which prohibits a private employer from firing an employee for refusing to get a vaccine.

    Therefore at the present time it is legally acceptable for a private employer to say Vaccinate or be fired.

    I will also add that the US Supreme Court determined as early as 1905 that vaccination mandates were not unConstitutional.
     
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  15. adjusterjack

    adjusterjack Super Moderator

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    There have already been several appellate decisions upholding vaccination mandates.

    And the US Supreme Court, on two recent occasions, has declined to hear cases involving lower courts' decisions on mandates.

    COVID-19 vaccine: SCOTUS declines Indiana University vaccine challenge (usatoday.com)

    Supreme Court declines to block New York City's COVID-19 vaccine mandate for teachers (yahoo.com)

    The 1905 vaccine case is Jacobson v. Massachusetts:

    Jacobson v. Massachusetts :: 197 U.S. 11 (1905) :: Justia US Supreme Court Center

    That's certainly their prerogative. If they get Covid and die, I won't shed a tear.

    Most of the Covid deaths in the last couple of months have been of the unvaccinated.

    "Stupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education, or by legislation. Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid. But stupidity is the only universal capital crime: the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity." Robert A. Heinlein
     
  16. Redemptionman

    Redemptionman Law Topic Starter Active Member

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    United Airlines has 200+ employees going through the termination process for not getting a freaking vaccination. I just hate that people will lose their jobs over this and unfortunately I will lose coworkers. It comes down to personal responsibility and people have a right to refuse it. I do not fault them for that but do not think they should lose their lively hood from the fact that they do not feel they want a COVID vaccine.
     
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  17. Zigner

    Zigner Well-Known Member

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    Meh - it's their choice, and every choice has consequences.
     
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  18. adjusterjack

    adjusterjack Super Moderator

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    How would you feel if one of your co-workers brought a gun to your workplace and threatened to kill people? According to you, he should be forgiven and allowed to keep his job.
     
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  19. Redemptionman

    Redemptionman Law Topic Starter Active Member

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    maybe a toy gun, your analogy is way over dramatized for what is actually occurring. I have had family members die from COVID and knew some healthy unvaccinated people that have died as well. I am not sure a vaccine would have saved their lives anyway.
     
  20. Zigner

    Zigner Well-Known Member

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    My condolences on the loss those close to you.

    How many vaccinated people do you know who have died of COVID. (Personally know, since you brought up the anecdotal examples.)
     
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