Is there any question the 4th Amendment applies to CPS home inspection

[chrissomething]

Jurisdiction

Alabama

Is there any question in your mind that a dhr home inspection falls under the 4th Amendment? Juvenile court judge told me this morning that the 4th Amendment search and seizure clause does not apply to a dhr inspection. That blew my mind bc I have several cases listed that says otherwise. The case involves my daughter being molested several years ago by a family member outside our household. We are not under investigation and there is not a single hint of any accusation against us, so I refuse to let the social worker into my house without a warrant.

The only reason given to inspect our home is so they can close the case. We had no doubt the court would decide with the social worker bc it is state law, and they don't care about the Constitution.

I say any time a govt worker wants to enter someone's house, the 4th Amendment applies.

 

[ElleMD]

They can't enter without a warrant but they can ask you to consent and there can be consequences if you do not.

 

[KatDini]

You go on with your bad self, then, and let us know how that works out for you.

ALABAMA DEPARTMENT OF HUMAN RESOURCES

What is going on inside your house that you did not want DHR looking around?

 

[zddoodah]

No.

 

[army judge]

Is there any question in your mind that a dhr home inspection falls under the 4th Amendment?

No, there is no question in mind that if a person AGREES to allow a state agency to inspect their home, ant 4th amendment protection has been waived.

I say any time a govt worker wants to enter someone's house, the 4th Amendment applies.

I recommend to all of my clients to simply refuse to gree to any and all requests to search their persons, home, automobile, or any other place the person occupies; if asked to agree to a search.

The search may be conducted anyway, but that is a matter for your attorney to address before a judge.

All you can do is say, "I don't consent to any search."

DON'T RESIST IF A SEARCH IS CONDUCTED, RECORD THE ENCOUNTER (OR HAVE ANOTHER PERSON RECORD IT), remain calm, be polite, be professional, don't use profanity, don't make threats, smile, comply with legitimate law enforcement requests, don't discuss the case, do say, "I will remain silent about this matter, and respectfully request a lawyer."


Once you begin to tread this path you must stay strong and steadfast, otherwise you're inviting bugger trouble.

 

[mightymoose]

I refuse to let the social worker into my house without a warrant.

That is your right. If you refuse then their option is to obtain a warrant. If you refuse and they opt to push by you, do not resist, but clearly and repeatedly let your objection be known.

I say any time a govt worker wants to enter someone's house, the 4th Amendment applies.

No, there are exceptions, none of which seem to apply here.

As added protection I highly recommend a moat, and maybe crocodiles.

 

[mightymoose]

They can't enter without a warrant but they can ask you to consent and there can be consequences if you do not.

The only real consequence is that they go get the warrant.

 

[mightymoose]

It is worth adding that even if you have previously consented to a search you can withdraw consent at any time.

I agree with the above- as a general rule it is never beneficial to you to consent to searches, even if you have nothing to hide.

If you simply refuse to open the door and acknowledge them they should go away.... unless they actually do have a warrant.

 

[army judge]

If you simply refuse to open the door and acknowledge them they should go away.... unless they actually do have a warrant.

Just to be clear, did you mean a "search warrant"?

I was commenting specifically about a "search warrant".

I ask because there are many types of warrants.

 

[chrissomething]

You go on with your bad self, then, and let us know how that works out for you.

ALABAMA DEPARTMENT OF HUMAN RESOURCES

What is going on inside your house that you did not want DHR looking around?

Nothing is going on. Why do I need to validate invoking my 4th Amendment right? I didn't say they can't come in. I said they can't come in without a warrant. The judge said they don't need a warrant bc in her opinion, it's not a search.

However, numerous federal judges have ruled otherwise.

 

[chrissomething]

Just to be clear, did you mean a "search warrant"?

I was commenting specifically about a "search warrant".

I ask because there are many types of warrants.

I didn't specifically mention a search warrant bc the 4th Amendment only states a "warrant". The judge specifically said "search warrant". But she says it's not required bc DHR inspection isn't a search. She did not allow me to identify specific federal cases where court decisions involving administrative searches by DHR/CPS, building inspectors, etc are considered searches and are "encompassed" by the 4th Amendment. She basically told me to shut up about the 4th Amendment.

 

[chrissomething]

The only real consequence is that they go get the warrant.

unfortunately, that's not true. I would be fine with them getting a warrant. The judge said they can enter without a warrant. I talked to the police captain, and he said they won't force there way into my home until the judge issue a contempt of court order leading to an arrest warrant.

If the police won't enter without a warrant, surely that is them saying the judge is wrong. The captain (and the desk officer) said several times that won't force their way in without a warrant.

 

[mightymoose]

Just to be clear, did you mean a "search warrant"?

I was commenting specifically about a "search warrant".

I ask because there are many types of warrants.

Yes... A search warrant seems to be what the OP is asking about.

 

[mightymoose]

I didn't specifically mention a search warrant bc the 4th Amendment only states a "warrant".

It isn't that simple. A search warrant is for searches, but an arrest is a form of seizure, and a different warrant.
The rules regarding how they operate are different.
There didn't seem to be any criminal element here according to what you have written, so this seems strictly about a search warrant to enter your home against your wishes and snoop around.

It is your right to refuse, but as mentioned earlier it is not wise to resist. Sort out your differences in court if you feel you are being wronged.

 

[mightymoose]

...until the judge issue a contempt of court order leading to an arrest warrant.

That is a little different. Did the court order this inspection, or is this a matter of social services requesting access to the house to inspect it?
If the court ordered you to do something it should be documented in the paperwork you walked away with.
If it was ordered, and you disagree with it, then there is a totally different path to follow.

 

[army judge]

She basically told me to shut up about the 4th Amendment.

If you previously signed an agreement to accept their "services", you've handcuffed yourself.

Did you agree at one point to cooperate with these bullies?


There are RULES of CIVIL PROCEDURE in all courts.

Those rules are for both state and federal courts.

There are also rules of trial procedure, for both federal and state courts.

A litigant is not allowed a point, because he or she wishes to make a point.

A judge determines if one is allowed to argue this or that.

There are also rules on how one can take leave to appeal an adverse ruling.

I don't need to know the specifics of your particular case.

I recently advised a family to simply decline to sp[eak with CPS, as it is known in Texas.

If you don't engage the beast, the beast has great difficulty from entering your lair.

My client followed my instructions to the letter, never engaging CPS, except to say, "I am exercising my right to remain silent, and under advice of counsel, I choose not to speak to you."

A couple CPS workers even tried to threaten me for advising my clients not to speak with them, because it made their job difficult.

I successfully filed a motion to prevent CPS from contacting me or my client about any matter, further requiring the state to address only me through the AG's office.

The AG wrote me an apology, advising the CPS employees would be instructed how to engage attorneys.

Most people believe others must respond to questions, which is entirely contrary to our laws and constitution.

 

[chrissomething]

That is a little different. Did the court order this inspection, or is this a matter of social services requesting access to the house to inspect it?
If the court ordered you to do something it should be documented in the paperwork you walked away with.
If it was ordered, and you disagree with it, then there is a totally different path to follow.

Yes, the court agreed to DHR's petition for the court to force me to cooperate with them inspecting my home. I did not receive any paperwork. She said: "you have 14 days to appeal. You are excused."

Should I have been given some paperwork? Is the "totally different path" you are referring to an appeal? Do you know what court hears an appeal to a juvenile court decision?

How could a judge not know the 4th Amendment applies to DHR home inspections?

I appreciate all comments and help from everyone.

 

[chrissomething]

If you previously signed an agreement to accept their "services", you've handcuffed yourself.

Did you agree at one point to cooperate with these bullies?

The only time we cooperated was with the forensic interview of my child who was molested (offender is someone in a different state). The interview was conducted by a child advocate not directly employed by DHR.

In the meeting after the forensic interview, the social worker said something about a home inspection, and I immediately told her she would need a warrant. Her response was and has continually been that her boss won't let her close the case without inspecting my house.

Every time I've talked to this woman I've told her she needs a warrant.

 

[mightymoose]

Yes, the court agreed to DHR's petition for the court to force me to cooperate with them inspecting my home.

Well that certainly changes things. The 4th protects you from UNREASONABLE searches and seizures. Apparently the court has heard the matter and found the inspection of your home to be reasonable.
You can still refuse, and as the police told you they won't force their way in without a warrant, but if you've been ordered to comply already then you are already beyond arguing about 4th Amendment issues.
If you think the court has made an error by ordering you to comply with the inspection then use your right to appeal to address those concerns.

It is not in your best interest to defy a court order.

 

[chrissomething]

Is there some kind of paperwork I can request about the final judgement, case number, and any other helpful info?