Is my chiropractor doctors' note only good for my back and not wrists?

[bergzoin]

Hello out there guys!

I have been doing as much research as I can on my case, but I am still scratching my head at just one thing that I cannot quite figure out. If anybody would be so kind as to help me, I would be forever grateful to them!

So I'll explain it like this..

1) I asked to be reasonably accommodated at my job for back, hip, and wrist injuries that I had sustained from my previous job.

a) I asked for an "ergonomic workstation."

2) They required a doctors' note to prove the need for accommodations.

3) I provided them with a doctors' note from my chiropractor, whom I was seeing for my back and hip injuries.

a) The exact words of the doctors' note read: "Prescribe a set up for ergonomic work station for XXXXX
XXXXXXXXXX to help him with his neck hip back pain as well as wrists. Evaluate work station."

4) When I got my ergonomic workstation, it only included a lowered keyboard tray, an ergonomic seat, and raised monitors.

b) It failed to include a split keyboard and ergonomic mouse, of which would have accommodated my wrists.

5) I asked why I was not given a split keyboard or ergonomic mouse, and they said that my doctors' note only covered my back because it came from my chiropractor.

So obviously the question is... was my employer allowed to refuse my wrist accommodations, because my doctors' note only came from my chiropractor, even though it specifically mentioned my wrists in the note?

I'm hoping there's an easy answer to this question, which is that of course they had no right to refuse my note! But I am no expert, and am having trouble finding much interpretive literature on the subject.

Please, if anyone out there has a definitive answer to this question, it would really, really mean a lot to me!

Thank you for your time,

Anonymous

 

[army judge]

I suggest you start here, OP:

http://www.ada.gov/qandaeng.htm


An example of an accommodation request:

http://www.shrm.org/templatestools/samples/hrforms/articles/pages/1cms_021281.aspx


I draw your attention to item 2:

http://askjan.org/media/medical.htm


EEOC further defines things:

http://www.eeoc.gov/policy/docs/guidance-inquiries.html

You might want to consult with an MD, DO, CNP, or PA.
The fact that you're seeing a DC could be a problem.
In many states, a DC doesn't possess the medical authority sufficient to certify a patient eligible for a Disabled Persons Placard or license plate.
I your state, COLORADO, a DC can certify a patient for such a privilege.

Be advised, under the ADA, an employer can require you to consult a medical practitioner of their choosing to undergo a medical evaluation.






.

 

[bergzoin]

Thank you immesily for this information! It has definitely sorted some things out.

I'm still a little confused though, so perhaps if you don't mind, I wanted to repost something I typed in a different forum, at it may help to explain things better..

What was the diagnosis of the wrist condition, and how is it being treated?

I was diagnosed with bilateral wrist strains when I filed for workers' comensation at my previous job. I was given work restrictions until I reached MMI.

Evidently bilateral wrist strains are not considered bad enough injuries to warrant filing workers' compensation claims with the state, so... while my ocupational health services workers' compensation doctor requested a job site analysis to determine if my job caused my injury or not, I never got one. So... when I got off the restrictions (and was actually at MMI) the unsafe/unsustainable work environment was still the same.. which is what caused my injuries in the first place... so I started going downhill again after that. My wrists ended up getting injured again, so I quit the job to avoid further injury.

I arrived at my next job with only my occupational health services paperwork, which didn't explain the bad work environment and my further injury from it. My new employer didn't accept the paperwork though, and told me to get a real "doctors' note."

So, I went back to occupational health services to ask for a doctors' note, but they tell me that because I am not under their care anymore, and that my workers' compensation claim is closed, that they cannot write me a doctors' note.

So then I went to my chiropractor, who had treated me for back and hip injuries sustained from the same previous employer.

[I should note that when I filed for workers' compensation on my wrists at my previous job, I tried to file for my back too, but was harassed, told "this is a serious matter," and bullied/coerced into not pursing it. I didn't know what to do though, as my back and hips were still injured, so I went to my family chiropractor. I told him about my back, hip, and wrist injuries that were caused by the bad work environment, and that I had already filed workers' compensation on my wrists. In addition to mentioning everything about the work environment though, I mentioned how I skateboarded when I was a kid, and right there my chiropractor diagnosed my injuries as non-work related, and started treating me for what he thought I had of repetetive motion injuries caused by my childhood hobbies. The treatment was short, about 15-20 treatments, before he actually injured me again in one of last the treatements, and so I decided to stop seeing him. Keep in mind that during this entire time I was borderline incapacitated from all the side effects of a half dozen different psychiatric pills that I was trying to get off of at the time after being misdiagnosed with bipolar a year before, so I didn't really know what the heck was going on. I just was seeking help from what I thought were medical professionals at the time, and was not expecting, nor knew what to do or think about, my back being mis/diagnosed.]

So... back to the story, my chiropracter ended up writing the doctors' note quoted above. I actually don't recall specifically mentioning my wrists in the consultation I had with him for the note, however at the time I didn't really think much about it. I just asked for a doctors' note for an ergonomic workstation, because I was in a lot of pain, and that was it. If I were to lean to one side or the other (like if his testimony came up in court or something) I'd say I probably did mention my wrists, because they were a significant problem I was dealing with from my previous job, in addition to my back and hips. I mean, I don't think he would have written the word "wrists" because all his ergonomic workstation requests say such a thing.. I believe he probably wrote the word "wrists" because either I had mentioned it to him specifically, and/or he had enough prior confirmed knowledge of them being injured from when I had previously told him I had filed workers' compensation on them.

I will admit he never officially diagnosed my wrists. I found out that he is at least a chiropractor that specializes in wrists as well as backs and hips, so I don't think he would have written the word "wrists" in error either -- without having some sort of minimal background in diagnosing and treating wrist problems.

BTW so as the story continues, I ended up not getting accommodated for my wrists, which after another five months caused my wrist problems to relapse, which caused another workers' compensation claim on them, but where this time around I was diagnosed with Carpal Tunnel Syndrome. And so basically only after filing workers' compensation was I finally given a fully ergonomic workstation. However... because my wrists had technically gone unaccommodated for a full year by that time, I was so injured that I had begun to accumulate excessive absenses, which, in turn, caused my employer to fire me.

So yeah, kind of a big mess they put me in, I'd say! All I can think about is that they didn't accept my note "in good faith" -- I mean, the note said wrists, and that's that. There's also no way on earth that my employer could reasonably deny that I was requesting a full ergonomic workstation. That'd be ridiculous of me to only request half a workstation, especially after dealing with my previous employer specifically injuring my wrists! Like I said, I was still trying to get off the pharmacuticals, so I didn't really know how to go about anything. I just asked my doctor for an ergonomic workstation, simple as that.

Also, now that I think about it, would anybody be able to possibly help me answer THIS question? Since I was initially unable to provide my employer with "reasonably sufficient" documentation, was it not their responsibility at that point to provide (and pay for) their own doctor to determine the level of my disabilities? I guess I kinda feel like by them not showing any "good faith" to accommodate me initially (with the workers' compensation paperwork I had initially provided them) and instead continued to merely "give me a chance to eventually obtain the reasonably sufficient documentation myself," they ended up allowing me to get injured during that timeframe further, which doesn't seem like something they should be able to get away with!

Now, back to your post kind armyjudge...

Be advised, under the ADA, an employer can require you to consult a medical practitioner of their choosing to undergo a medical evaluation.

This statement is precisely what I am trying to figure out now. If they "can" require me to consult a medical practitioner of their choosing, but choose not to do so, but then allow me to continue working unnaccomodated, during which I continue being injured as I continue seeking more "reasonable" documentation, is that not some sort of assault or what not? Where does "good faith" come into play, if I may ask?

I'm so sorry about the long and confusing post, but thank you very very much if you read it all, and can potentially help me sort some things out!

 

[bergzoin]

Hey so I've been thinking guys, and would like to also pose this question if it's okay..

Considering I was diagnosed with Carpal Tunnel Syndrome after filing my most recent workers' compensation injury, isn't that enough to classify me as disabled and in need of accommodations? I mean, I did get a fully ergonomic workstation after filing, as part of the work restrictions, however I didn't get time off work. And my employer fired me over the absences I was still accumulating after incurring my injuries. I think I read somewhere that an employer is required to give leave as one type of reasonable accommodation (if it doesn't cause them any undo hardship in doing so)? And so if that's the case, then shouldn't my absences have been excused and not counted against me?

Thank you again for listening, and for providing any input that you can. I really really appreciate that you guys offer your time on the forums like this!

 

[cbg]

You have a very incorrect idea about what is considered a reasonable accommodation.

Considering I was diagnosed with Carpal Tunnel Syndrome after filing my most recent workers' compensation injury, isn't that enough to classify me as disabled and in need of accommodations?

No. It's not. As I indicated elsewhere (though you may not have had the opportunity to see the response yet) there is as yet only one condition that automatically qualifies for ADA protections and that is HIV/AIDS. Every other condition, without exception, must be looked at on a case by case basis. While a few years ago the ADA was updated and clarified, you still don't get automatic protection for any condition but that one. Nor is the employer required to assume you need an accommodation - unlike FMLA, with the ADA it's your responsibility to request an accommodation, not your employer's to volunteer it.

I think I read somewhere that an employer is required to give leave as one type of reasonable accommodation (if it doesn't cause them any undo hardship in doing so)?

Not quite correct. There is NO accommodation that an employer is REQUIRED to provide. A short leave can be considered a reasonable accommodation IF it has been approved as such in advance, but under NO law, including the ADA, is an employer required to offer unlimited sick days or approve all time off.

 

[army judge]

When you were on workers comp, had you consulted an attorney?
If not, no problem.
If workers comp does reappear in your life, retain a good, workers comp attorney.
He or she is compensated by the state as part of the claims process.

Back to this issue, you appear to be consolidating ADA and FMLA.
They are different.
They often can be used together.
But, FMLA isn't, in my view all that it would appear to be.
It's often misunderstood, misperceived, and misapplied.
It's limited to 12 weeks annually.
Those 12 weeks can be calculated oddly.
ADA is a very useful tool for those that require it.
ADA has a longer shelf life.
It's supposedly permanent, if anything can be permanent.

There are others far more knowledgeable about FMLA and ADA.
I know ADA because of family members who have applied it, and require it.

I suggest you consult a neurologist.
If you select a good one (MD or DO), you'll be surprised at how they can help you diagnose, understand, and assist you with your condition.
Once you've been evaluated, a neurosurgeon might be looped into the process.
They serve two distinct purposes.
A good neurologist is curious, will work with you to determine the source if your pain, and will arrive at a treatment regimen.
If surgery is indicated, a neurosurgeon will become involved.
In the interim, having them in your life will better help you achieve the accommodation you desire, so that you can remain gainfully employed.

It's just my personal opinion, I avoid chiropractors.
Why?
For the reason you cited.
You somehow were injured by yours.

Lets see if others can offer you better information, insight, and assistance.

 

[ElleMD]

Lots of unnecessary details in your posts but I will try to make sense of it. BTW, I am a WC/ADA/FMLA specialist who has designed many an ergonomic work stations as well as managed ADA accommodation requests for over a decade. This is what I do for a living so I am very familiar with the laws and what is required.

Pretty much everything with the initial employer is water under the bridge so no sense wasting time hashing out what could have/should have happened.

Most recent employer:

1. If your Chiro had never treated you for your wrists, any recommendation regarding your wrists would be based on nothing more than uneducated opinion and does not require accommodation. Also, ADA does not require the accommodation you want nor the one your doctor recommends, just one which is reasonable. If the one granted wasn't working for you, it was your responsibility to say so, provide documentation from a qualified medical professional who was actively treating you for the condition, and requesting a new/revised accommodation. As an aside, lowering the keyboard tray is sufficient to create an ergonomic workstation. It is the positioning which makes it ergonomic but I digress.

There is no requirement that an employer pay for an exam to substantiate your claims of disability. that is an option they have available if they deem necessary based on a need to determine how to accommodate but you are not entitled to a diagnostic medical exam at your employer's expense. Any exam would be for your employer's benefit, not yours. You still hold the burden of proof that a disability exists and that accommodation is required.

Did you ever treat for your wrists? If not, this is a non-issue as you haven't even come close to meeting the burden under ADA as far as the wrists. (assuming it would have even qualified under ADA if you had).


2. Your timeline is foggy. When did you start missing time from work? How long had you been at that employer and did you/they qualify for FMLA? When did you become aware you had CT/ start actually seeing a doctor for your wrists? Did you request/qualify for FMLA or leave as an accommodation under ADA? ADA does not automatically entitle you to leave and it doesn't entitle you to any set amount of leave. What is reasonable varies from employer to employer, job to job and employee to employee.

3. When did you actually file the WC Claim and were all the absences after that was done? How much time did you miss? Did you report that lost time to the WC Carrier? Did you have a doctor actually take you off work for each of those days (a generic take off as needed note does not count)? How long had you been employed there when you filed the claim?

4. What was the exact reason you were given for your termination? Were you warned prior to termination?

 

[bergzoin]

Thank you ElleMD for trying to help me figure this out! A lot of your questions I could likely answer using a post I made in a different forum..

They can fix carpal tunnel via surgery. Have you had an EMG to diagnose the level of impairment? An xray/MRI to determine surgery feasibility? How were you "diagnosed" and what medical evidence supports the diagnosis?

When I filed for workers' compensation, I was administered an EMG and squeeze tests, which showed what they considered to be CTS in both wrists (and I agree with them on that assessment). They say surgery may be required if I cannot mitigate the issues otherwise.

No, just having a diagnosis of carpel tunnel does not automatically make you disabled for ADA purposes. The reason why is in my response to you "down the street".

It's not so much that I was seeking disability under the ADA, I was just trying to figure out how to get an ergonomic workstation to avoid further injury. But because I couldn't show enough proof in time, or figure things out in time, I ended up getting exactly what I was trying to avoid, CTS. I guess I'm just trying to figure out at this point how I could be legally fired for the absences related to my injuries.

so it would appear that even if wrists were mentioned, at the time you sought the note you, yourself, did not deem the condition to be sufficiently serious that you required either a diagnosis or treatment.

I definitely knew I had wrist problems, but was so messed up at the time coming off the bipolar pills that I didn't really know how to go about the situation. The occupational health services doctor that treated my original workers' compensation injury of my wrists at my last employer couldn't help me because I wasn't "under his care" anymore, so after that I went to my psychiatrist, my family physician, and then to my chiropractor. BTW at the time I was trying to figure out how to get FMLA for the disabling condition I was already in because of my back and the pill side effects, so that's why I tried going to my psychiatrist and then family physician. Didn't really expect the psychiatrist to slam the door in my face (and not give me any of my paperwork). And also didn't really expect my family physician to not be able to write a note for FMLA. I can't even remember why he said he couldn't get me the FMLA, but I recall being so depressed at that point that I didn't even bother to ask him about writing a note for my wrists and/or back. And so only a couple of months later, after aimlessly doing research while continuing to be injured, trying to figure out how to get myself out of my situation, I went to my chiropractor, whom I thought at the time is all I needed to get a fully ergonomic workstation. It wasn't until after I got the note, and the workstation, that they didn't give me the split keyboard and mouse. But by that time I was so depresed and discouraged that I honestly didn't know what to do, and actually figured that I was out of options at that point, and that they didn't "fully accept" my doctors' note, but then didn't really do much to get me in the right direction otherwise. Because of the way they treated my after I asked about why my note didn't cover my wrists, I actually thought it was over, and gave up. I didn't actually think to go find a separate doctor for my wrists. I know that sounds stupid, but I was at the end of my line, in a lot of pain, and my mind just wasn't thinking right.

You just told us that it was five months between when you first documented your need for accommodation and the time you got a diagnosis of carpal tunnel syndrome resulting in additional accommodation. If a full year passed, that would mean that you chose to work in a standard workstation for six or seven months before you finally chose to get a note from your chiropractor. Why did you choose to wait that long?

Sorry about the mixup there. A full year had passed since I had first attempted to inform my employer about my wrist (and back) problems. Initially they didn't accept my occupational health services paperwork, which sent me back to the drawing board on how to prove I had injuries. But because I was so messed up on bipolar pills at the time, it took me seven months to cycle through the attempted resolutions with my psychiatrist, and then family physician, and then eventually my chiropractor. So I was definitely trying to figure out how to help myself over the course of the entire time, from three months into my employment (which is when I showed them my initial paperwork) into the seven months of trying to figure out how to get proof (and eventually getting just the chiropractors note) then into the five additional months following that. But because I couldn't figure what to do about my wrists in time, I got hurt again during that "five month period" following the "seven month period."

You haven't shared with us why you continued to accumulate unexcused absences or why, if you were receiving worker's comp coverage for the CTS, your treating doctors could not substantiate a medical reason why you needed to miss work. If you did not have a basis for intermittent FMLA leave and you did not have a valid medical excuse for your unexcused absences, your various physical ailments will not prevent your employer for firing you for failing to show up for work.

My absences were all caused by a combination of the trailing side effects of the pills I was trying to get off of at the time, mixed with the problems I was incurring with my back, hip, and wrists because I wasn't able to get them accommodated in time. I just struggled in general, including problems getting to work on certain bad weather days, and problems at work where I couldn't complete a full shift (both before I was accommodated and also after, since the accommodations came so late). The whole time I was trying to figure out how to get my absences excused. But because some of the absences were caused by my bipolar pill side effects, and back problems, I thought I was already SOL for FMLA because I had already tried to get it from my phsyciatrist and family physician, both of which didn't help me (and didn't point me the right direction either). I didn't even think to go back to my workers' compensation doctor for FMLA.

Basically stepping outside all these injuries and accommodations, for the last couple of years now I have been trying to figure out how to get general help relating to my bipolar misdiagnosis fiaso, which directly complicated the injuries I had sustained on the job at both of my employers. The misdiagnosis didn't just complicate the injuries themselves, but how to go about getting help for the injuries. I wish I could figure out how to claim disability for the whole damn four years that my psychiatrist took from me, because I was just so messed up from his pills that I didn't know what to do about basically anything. I really wish that I was able to substantiate my psychological disabilities in time, for perhaps maybe at the very least, it could have helped excuse the absences that I had incurred because of the exaserbating circumstances that it caused me. I was just frauded so bad on the pills that I didn't know what the heck to do about basically anything.

While it's not relevent to certain aspects of the situation I have so far explained, I should note that I have been getting away from two very abusive mormon parents this whole time, that have refused to help me in any way, because they think that I'm scamming, and because they don't like lawsuits. So I was basically raised in an extremely sheltered household (that I wish could be proven/used as a disability because it certainly felt like one!) that didn't give me many tools to figure out how to deal with being frauded by my psychiatrist, as well as an unsafe previous work environment, leading into the medical and legal complications of my most recent job. Basically this entire time I wish I could claim psychological and educational disability, because that's why I feel I haven't been able to help my own problems in time.

...(continued in next post)...

 

[bergzoin]

...(continued from previous post)...

You told us that upon your diagnosis you were accommodated by being given a split keyboard and ergonomic mouse. Why do you believe that getting a diagnosis of CTS would automatically trigger a leave of absence from work?

That's a really good question! I guess I thought it was apparent to my employer that their failure to accommodate me for so long was the cause of my absences. Even though I didn't have "official paperwork" in time, I was in constant contact with them from the very beginning, so for over a year they knew (at the very least from my complaining) that I was having trouble dealing with the pills and a bad previous work environment. I showed them everything I possibly could, all along my progress in obtaining it, to substantiate my claims of bipolar disability fraud, and back and wrist fraud incurred from a previous unsafe work environment (and the fraud that perpetuated in that environment that caused my wrist injuries not to be filed correctly so as to get me a job site analysis, and also the fraud that was caused by my chiropractor misdiagnosing my back injury as non-work-related, which also lent itself to not having a job site analysis at my previous employer).

Did you request a period of unpaid FMLA leave? Did your doctor disable you from working -- and if so, why didn't you communicate that to your employer?

I had asked multiple times for my absences to be excused, and every time I was told I needed to get FMLA. Of course, I had already attempted to get FMLA from all three of my previous doctors, before my injuries got worse. I'm thinking I wasn't able to get it from my psychiatrist for my bipolar issues because it would have exposed his fraud in prescribing me so many dehabilitating pills. And I'm thinking I wasn't able to get FMLA from my family physician either because he didn't have enough information about my situation, because I was so frauded! And so like I said before, I didn't really think to try and get FMLA or some sort of excuse for my absences otherwise, from my workers' compensation doctor, because I thought he was only treating my wrists, and couldn't substantiate some of the deeper claims of disability and inability to work full time that I was making because of my bipolar and back problems.

*Sigh* As you can see, I didn't in the first place, and still today don't know what to do about my situation, as it has been getting increasingly out of control ever since I was misdiagnosed with bipolar four years ago, and then sent into an unsafe previous work environment that injured and even further frauded me. All I wanted was an ergonomic workstation to avoid further injury. Even though I couldn't prove my injuries in time, I still feel that I gave my employer more than enough "good faith" and am really just disgusted that I wasn't met with the same. And to top it all off, I was told I couldn't provide my own keyboard and mouse because it violated my employer's "security policy." But then I don't get why they didn't let me at least pay to have them provide such inexpensive accommodations! Truly ridiculous, IMO. Sure, I may have been frauded and so didn't have what constituted "enough proof" in time. But we're talking about a freaking keyboard and mouse here! I was painfully obvious that I needed them. Is this what "corporate" has come to?

I'm sorry, no more ranting! Thank you very much for trying to help me get to the bottom of my situation otherwise. I guess I'm finding that perhaps more of the liability for my current problems may lie with my previous employer (who didn't get me a JSA or file my back injury with workers' compensation) as well as my chiropractor (who misdiagnosed my back as not work-related) as well as my psychiatrist (who prescribed me WAY too many pills and really f*cked me up bad from them.

4. What was the exact reason you were given for your termination? Were you warned prior to termination?

Multiple times (like at least 4) over the last six or so months leading up to my termination, as my absences continued to hover 3-5 over the "acceptable amount" of 6 (calculated over a rolling 90 day period) I was sat down by my supervisor and literally told "Okay XXXXX, what are we going to do about these absences.." and every time of course I said "I don't know! I'm trying to figure out how to get FMLA but I've talked to these and these doctors, and I think I've been frauded, because they aren't helping me!"

I did my absolute best at all times, during the entire length of my employment, to explain EVERYTHING to them, from my bipolar misdiagnosis, to my previous job injuries, to my current doctor difficulties. And every time they said the same: "Sorry, we don't have enough paperwork."

And so, they eventually asked me again, "Okay XXXX, what are we going to do about these absences" only this last time they said that they'd fire me if I didn't sign a piece of paper resigning my position. I didn't know what else to do in the end, and just signed it. I was so fed up from their harrassment (there were actually times they literally said "I don't believe you have wrists problems") that I just up and quit to avoid further harrassment and injury.

 

[Disabled Vet]

Multiple times (like at least 4) over the last six or so months leading up to my termination, as my absences continued to hover 3-5 over the "acceptable amount" of 6 (calculated over a rolling 90 day period) I was sat down by my supervisor and literally told "Okay XXXXX, what are we going to do about these absences.." and every time of course I said "I don't know! I'm trying to figure out how to get FMLA but I've talked to these and these doctors, and I think I've been frauded, because they aren't helping me!"


You have posted several questions about your condition and ADA laws. I find that the above statement is questionable. You seem educated enough to research your questions. Why did you feel Frauded when your own research answers your questions.

Have you considered SSD? If you condition prevents you from working.

 

[bergzoin]

You have posted several questions about your condition and ADA laws. I find that the above statement is questionable. You seem educated enough to research your questions. Why did you feel Frauded when your own research answers your questions.

Actually, to be completely honest, this has been XXXXX's brother trying to explain everything this whole time, as my brother is still struggling himself to put it all together. So while it looks like XXXXX knows a lot about his situation, he really doesn't (or at least, really didn't up to this point). My brother (and I) basically didn't even "figure out" that his previous job may have frauded him (and his chiropractor too) until midway through his most recent employer, when they started asking him for documentation and all he could provide was his occupational health services paperwork. It was HR in fact, that unknowingly helped crack open his case in the first place, when they said "This paperwork doesn't work, there's no workers' compensation claim number on it."

So ever since, over the course of the last six months or so, I've been trying to figure out how to help him with the research that I've been conducting. My apologies for attempting to tell the whole story through his first person perspective. I didn't even think to realize how odd that may look considering the amount of information (and informed writing style) that my posts have contained.

Have you considered SSD? If you condition prevents you from working.

Right now he is looking into that, but doesn't really know where to start. He's pretty much trying to figure out which doctor(s) to try talking to now about everything. Money is unfortunately an obsticle in that regard.

This forum topic was at attempt to figure out what potential liabilities his most recent employer may have, but alas, it looks like the answer to that question may be minimal.

 

[disagreeable]

The bi-polar appears to be under control. The Carpal Tunnel will not get you SSI or SSDI it will get you a recommendation for surgery or a wrist brace.

 

[ElleMD]

You/your brother/whomever you are, use the term fraud a whole lot. Nothing you indicate sounds remotely like fraud. If one of the doctors was truly treating in an inappropriate manner and against standard of care, you/he/the patient, might have a malpractice claim. If you/he/the patient didn't like a particular doctor or feel that the doctor was serving your/his needs, then you/he find another one. Happens every day.

An employer's obligations are pretty clear. So are an employee's, at least as far as this situation is concerned. If an employee has a need for accommodation, they must provide evidence from someone who is actively treating them and can both verify the existence of the disability as well as the extent and manner to which it disables. There are very few cases where an accommodation is obvious (think wheelchair and the need for a ramp and access). With things like bi-polar, CT, and back pain, that is far from the case. The law actually prohibits employer from acting without verification of a diagnosed disability as it would be considered regarding someone as disabled. The burden is always on the employee to seek the accommodation and provide proof of its existence. An old note from a doctor who is no longer treating an employee is not adequate. If the employee can not produce a single note from any current doctor, the employer has no duty to accommodate. Why you would think the employer has a greater burden than even the employee themselves to seek a diagnosis and prove a disability is unfathomable.

Where you/he even got the notion that a split keyboard and special mouse would mitigate the symptoms is confusing. If no medical treatment was sought and no doctor ever evaluated the wrists or made recommendations, how do you/he know that this particular solution would have worked? Marketing ads for those products? CT can also be caused by many other ailments.

Same with FMLA. The employer gave numerous opportunities to warn about attendance and allow the employee to bring up FMLA. If the response is that the employee's own doctors do not feel that the employee has any medical reason to be off work and will not certify that there is a medical condition which qualifies, then those absences are not protected. If the employee is unhappy with the service the doctor is providing, then it is their responsibility to find another. The employer does not have a crystal ball. If told that the doctor doesn't find FMLA necessary, they are allowed to take that at face value and also not consider the absences as FMLA. It baffles the mind that you would believe otherwise.

 

[bergzoin]

You/your brother/whomever you are, use the term fraud a whole lot. Nothing you indicate sounds remotely like fraud. If one of the doctors was truly treating in an inappropriate manner and against standard of care, you/he/the patient, might have a malpractice claim. If you/he/the patient didn't like a particular doctor or feel that the doctor was serving your/his needs, then you/he find another one. Happens every day.

You are absolutely correct. The words "fraud" and "malpractice" have been mistakenly used interchangeably by us. To clarify, these are some of the variables my brother has had to deal with:

1) A psychiatrist prescribed my brother bad pills, then more bad pills to deal with the side effects of the original bad pills. Things go downhill fast, and the psychiatrist doesn't show any "good faith" by continuing to helping him, even after he reports multiple attempted suicides to the psychiatrist. Here my brother feels that actual fraud may be involved, as there may be an alterior motive and/or wreckless malace or indifference to my brother's situation.

2) A bad supervisor in an unsafe previous work environment coerces my brother into not filing a workers' compensation claim on his back. This sounds like fraud right on the face of it. The lack of filing lends itself to there being no job site analysis, which mixed with an unsafe work environment, causes my brother's recently incurred on-the-job injuries to relapse again after going back to "full duty" when the temporary work restrictions lifted.

3) A bad family chiropractor treats my brother for the back and hip injuries that he had recently incurred on the job. The chiropractor misdiagnoses the injuries as non-job-related though, thus further lending to there being no job site analysis. Here it just looks like medical malpractice.

The law actually prohibits employer from acting without verification of a diagnosed disability as it would be considered regarding someone as disabled. The burden is always on the employee to seek the accommodation and provide proof of its existence. An old note from a doctor who is no longer treating an employee is not adequate. If the employee can not produce a single note from any current doctor, the employer has no duty to accommodate. Why you would think the employer has a greater burden than even the employee themselves to seek a diagnosis and prove a disability is unfathomable.

This makes perfect sense, however it would be much appreciated if a deeper point could be clarified on the subject:

Basically, what I cannot figure out, is "if the employee cannot produce a single note from any current doctor" as you say, but is given time to obtain a note, exactly how much time should be given to him? I mean, according to a paper I recently found by the ADA (eeoc[dot]gov/policy/docs/guidance-inquiries.html) they state that "if an employee provides insufficient documentation in response to the employer's initial request, the employer should explain why the documentation is insufficient and allow the employee an opportunity to provide the missing information in a timely manner." Here, the words "timely manner" are where I get tripped up. If the employee cannot provide documentation in a "timely manner" does that mean they have to just keep on working while being injured? Does the employer get to keep on employing them, indefinitely and without liability, while knowing they are being injured (through at the very least, their persistent complaints of hurting while on the job because of the lack of any accommodations)?

What further confuses me is a different paper I recently found by the ADA (eeoc[dot]gov/policy/docs/workcomp.html) where the question gets asked: "under the ADA, is a rehabilitation counselor, physician, or other specialist responsible for deciding whether an employee with a disability-related occupational injury is ready to return to work?" And the answer the ADA gave for that question was "No. The employer bears the ultimate responsibility for deciding whether an employee with a disability-related occupational injury is ready to return to work. Therefore, the employer, rather than a rehabilitation counselor, physician, or other specialist, must determine whether the employee can perform the essential functions of the job, with or without reasonable accommodation, or can work without posing a direct threat."

So, when I read these statements, I can only imagine that the employer is at the very least, liable for not reporting a continuous on-the-job injury? Perhaps where they became liable was after the definition of a "timely manner" had passed -- whatever that may be?

Where you/he even got the notion that a split keyboard and special mouse would mitigate the symptoms is confusing. If no medical treatment was sought and no doctor ever evaluated the wrists or made recommendations, how do you/he know that this particular solution would have worked? Marketing ads for those products? CT can also be caused by many other ailments.

That's a very good question! My brother did not know for sure that split keyboard and ergonomic mouse would successfully accommodate his wrist problems. He just figured it was a good place to start as the current workstation setup was causing him pain? After filing workers' compensation on his wrists though, a split keyboard and ergonomic mouse was specifically what he was given, so I suppose he was at least on the right track for what he thought he might need.

Basically, from what I can gather thus far, my brother wasn't able to figure out how to get "sufficient documentation" in a "timely manner" to prove his occupational injury related disabilities under the ADA, but that perhaps going that direction he was actually barking up the wrong tree, and should have been approaching the situation from a workers' compensation angle. I mean, both his back and wrist injuries were strictly work related, and not necessarily disability related. And so even though the ADA does concern itself with occupational injuries if they deem a person "disabled" under their definition, we're both thinking now that perhaps my brother should have just filed a separate workers' compensation claim on his back, during the period of time that it wasn't accommodated. (Side note, I asked him why, and he said he had already filed a workers' compensation claim on his back for the previous employer, but because he filed so late, they claimed it wasn't work related.. and so he never even thought to file another workers' compensation claim under the current employer because he thought it wasn't current-employer-related). But by filing his wrists again, this time as a current-employer-related injury (albeit quite late into his issues) he was at least able to finally prove he had wrist problems enough to get accommodated. If only he had done the same for his back in time, perhaps his workers' compensation doctor could have caught his injuries sooner, had a more complete idea of what was going on, and even possibly be able prescribe work restrictions that could have minimized the number of absences incurred thereafter. (Side note, my brother is still within the two year filing window for his back, and is considering taking that approach, but would like any advice on the subject if there's any to give).

So... I think the question of questions is, can my brother's most recent employer legally claim they "didn't know" about his disabilities (because of his lack of documentation) but still be liable for not reporting his continuous on-the-job injuries (that they couldn't reasonably deny were being incurred simply because of how many times my brother repeately told them that their non-accommodations were causing him further injury, as well as his job performance constantly suffering as a result)?

Even though my brother didn't know how to approach getting help for his back, I just don't understand how an employer can sit back and say "oh, well we didn't have to get him an ergonomic workstation because he couldn't prove that he was disabled" when my brother literally told them, almost on a daily basis, not so much that he was disabled, but that he was simply being further injured!

It just feels like they hid behind the ADA law (that they had no reasonable documentation) to basically not follow workers' compensation law (and report an on-the-job injury). Oh, and I should note, that they knew specifically that a non-ergonomic workstation causes "problems" by their evidence of a one-page handout they gave my brother when he first started working. Very ironic, and kind of insulting I think, that they would give a handout admitting their knowledge that non-ergonomic workstations can cause problems, but then not believe an employee who goes to them complaining that their non-ergonomic workstations are causing them problems! This scenario just sounds ridiculous -- ADA, disability, and reasonable documentation completly aside.

The employer does not have a crystal ball.

Just reitering the main point. Even though his employer doesn't have a crystal ball, they did have his testimony and persistent complaints of pain. Is that not enough to justify doing something? Where does the liability rest when an employee comes to an employer reporting on-the-job injuries, but doesn't exactly know how to word that?

Thank you again, and to anyone else, that is able to help sort some of this stuff out! Both my brother and I are deeply grateful that we have been able to figure out so much so far.

 

[cbg]

Despite several different people attempting to explain it to you on several different boards, you seem to still have the idea that all you/your brother/whomever has to do is complain about having (name the condition here) and the rest of the responsibility is on the employer to obtain the documentation, determine what would be a reasonable accommodation (with reasonable defined as whatever you/your brother/whomever wants or has recently read about on the internet regardless of whether it applies or not) and implement it.

You are wrong, but I'm not going to waste any more time trying to bang it into your head since you seem determined not to understand.

 

[bergzoin]

Despite several different people attempting to explain it to you on several different boards, you seem to still have the idea that all you/your brother/whomever has to do is complain about having (name the condition here) and the rest of the responsibility is on the employer to obtain the documentation, determine what would be a reasonable accommodation (with reasonable defined as whatever you/your brother/whomever wants or has recently read about on the internet regardless of whether it applies or not) and implement it.

Woah there sir or ma'am. Please don't assume, despite your infinite wisdom and perfect kindness. My brother and I are just trying to answer some [what are turning out not to be] basic questions about his legal, employment, and medical situation. He is currently unemployed AGAIN, and injured AGAIN, and is just trying to figure out (1) how he got to this point, and (2) how to get back out of it. Regardless of whatever liabilities his most recent employer has or not, he still got injured while on the job. Again. Like after his previous job already got away with injuring him before.

What would you do if you worked in an unsafe work environment, complained that it was unsafe (and that you were being hurt by it) but then were harrassed for complaining? How would you feel if you ended up getting injured in that same unsafe work environment, despite complaining? How about being forced to quit after attempting to report your injuries, because your work environment never made it safer for you, because you were misdiagnosed ON TWO FRONTS, by what you thought were reputable doctors, into having some of your injuries be considered non-work-related, leading to you not having a job site analysis for them!? How about not knowing what to do during this entire time because you're completely incapacitated by the side effects of over a half a dozen pharmaceuticals that you're trying to get off of? What happens when you have to get another job, and during that job you find out the hard way that your injuries were never handled correctly in the first place, and that you still need help in simply getting them diagnosed, let alone treated? How about being told that because you can't prove your injuries, you are required to continue working full time while those injuries remain unaccommodated?

All [we] know is that (1) my brother didn't do all this to himself, which means that (2) he deserves to be made whole again by someone else. Wherever that liability rests, is all we're trying to figure out now. Sure, my brother's most recent employer may not be specifically liable because of his failure to show them sufficient documentation. But that doesn't excuse the fact that HE GOT INJURED AGAIN, while on their jobsite. And no, he didn't just complain about (insert condition here) and leave the rest to his employer. He was dragged along by his employer and doctors for several months as he continued trying to uncover the malpractices and frauds that had caused him to be in such a predicament in the first place. Even though he didn't know it, he was basically asking that his sustained injuries that were caused by his prior workplace be re-reported so that he could be fully diagnosed, or re-diagnosed, or whatever, with (insert whatever condition here), and only then have his doctor suggest adequate treatment for him (to include whatever the doctor ordered, be it an ergonomic workstation or not). It's not like my brother just knew what conditions he had, and what he needed to successfully accommodate them. He just realized that (1) he was injured more than he was originally diagnosed, and (2) an ergonomic workstation was a good place to start, especially considering the printout his employer gave him on the subject when he started working there. Sure, it may be "his fault" in the eyes of the law, for not having adequate paperwork to show his most recent employer, but it wasn't his fault that his medical situation got so complicated so quick at his previous job, that he didn't even know where to start when he got to his new job. His story was only unraveling itself to him right as he was in the middle of trying to be accommodated, so of course he didn't have enough time to figure it all out. All while he's going around to his doctors who aren't helping him because they don't want to expose their malpractices of him, or because he isn't under their care anymore, or whatever reason his doctors gave him. The point is he tried everything he could think of, visited all the doctors he could think of, and just couldn't figure it all out in time. How would you fend in such a dire situation? Not so well I'm willing to think. Some may consider you "an expert" in disability law, but this is the first time anything like this has ever happened to my brother in his entire life. And so without the help of doctors, or employers, or even our parents, he hasn't had ANY idea about what to do about anything.

And so here we are today, and the best direction we can think to go at this point is for my brother to file a workers' compensation claim on his back, under his most recent employer, because he technically got further hurt on their jobsite, regardless of the variables that went into the situation otherwise. Perhaps doing so will help crack open his previously denied workers' compensation claim on his back, the original injury that didn't get investigated correctly, that he attempted to file under his previous employer but was coerced into not doing so. (Oh and by the way, while of course it makes sense for my brother to also seek independent help for his back, he has since attempted again to do that, and this time his primary care physician has failed to get back to him for 12 WEEKS NOW on his request for an fMRI for his back. No reason given yet as to why he can't have one, and he has attempted to follow up with them multiple times since). So for whatever reason his primary care physician doesn't want to help him either. At least regarding the current diagnosis and treatment of my brother's wrists, his most recent workers' compensation doctor got enough information the second time around to accurately diagnose and treat him, so he's doing better there. And he's been off the pills for long enough now that they don't interfere with his life at all, so he's good there too.

Anyways, it just warms my soul that I could come on here, ask for help, and be given tasteless opposition in return. Thank you cbg for your infinitely wise and generous insight. You have truly helped us beyond our comprehension! Next time you're in a pickle I'll be sure to provide you with equally valuable advice.

 

[army judge]

If anyone believes they suffered an on the job injury, or his or her health was damaged by repetitive workplace motions or through a dangerous working environment, file a claim with your state's workers compensation commission, department, board, or agency.

By the way, this isn't a hard task. It's made easy so that anyone can do it, even a Neanderthal or Troglodyte. LOL



In CO, you start the process here:


https://www.colorado.gov/pacific/cdle/dwc

Regardless, one must ALWAYS report a workplace injury, illness, problem to their employer. An employee is directed to follow the employer policies and protocols in doing this.

Again, two or three sentences explaining how, when, where you were harmed or injured all that s required. Again, simple. Start by telling your supervise or manager, and always make sure HR or Safety is involved. Most importantly, put it in writing, even if its in a napkin or paper sack. Keep copies for yourself, the state, and your lawyer. Above all, seek medical treatment. Ask your employer for the authorized practitioner list provided by their insurer or plan administrator. Ask and Ye shall receive.


After a claim has been filed, you can retain a WC Attorney. The attorney's fees derive from taxpayer support and funding.

Some examples of firms available.
I don't endorse any.
There are dozens in every locale.
Your brother must choose the firm he feels will best serve his interests.

http://mcdivittlaw.com/how-colorados-workers-compensation-works/


http://www.workerscompensationlawco...-Compensation/Workers-Comp-Claim-Denied.shtml


http://www.injurylawcolorado.com/co...sation/ebook-reporting-on-the-job-injury.html







Good luck.

 

[cbg]

Over the course of three boards, I've explained FMLA to you. I've tried to explain the ADA. I've seen others explain it in more detail. No matter how much detail we provide and no matter how many times we explain why your reasoning is contrary to what the law actually states, you're still trying to put it on the employer. So I'm done. You can believe what you want.

 

[ElleMD]

Not the employer's problem. If his doctor was inadequate, HE needed to find a new one. No one forced him to continue seeing someone who could not help. You would have to talk to a malpractice attorney if you think it met that standard but it has no bearing on the employer either way.

2) A bad supervisor in an unsafe previous work environment coerces my brother into not filing a workers' compensation claim on his back. This sounds like fraud right on the face of it. The lack of filing lends itself to there being no job site analysis, which mixed with an unsafe work environment, causes my brother's recently incurred on-the-job injuries to relapse again after going back to "full duty" when the temporary work restrictions lifted.

Anything that happened at the previous employer is immaterial. If he was really injured at the previous employer, it would have been fraud for him to claim it was from the new one. The fact that his symptoms didn't magically go away at the new employer does not mean he was injured there. There is no obligation to perform a job analysis even if a WC claim is filed.

Not having a desk which has been evaluated for ergonomics is not even in the same ballpark as an unsafe work environment. If his workstation was a problem, your brother needed to see a doctor who could evaluate him, diagnose the condition(s), make recommendations that are based on sound medical principles -not a marketing department, and provide documentation to his employer of that need. There are zero circumstances under which that burden falls to the employer. None. Complaining and missing time do not do it. He flat out told them that he wasn't treating and what doctors he did have didn't feel he needed time off under FMLA. The employer did accommodate based on what they did receive. That your brother submitted inadequate documentation for any further conditions is not in any way the employer's fault.

There is no set period of time under ADA to provide updated medical documentation but it sounds like your brother never did. "Never" is clearly not a timely manner. He knew they were waiting for it as they did the ergo assessment based on what they did have and explained very clearly why they did not do anything else and what they needed. Why your brother failed to do anything is beyond me, but not the employer's fault. Complaining and whining create no obligation. It sounds like the company was willing to accommodate if only your brother did the bare minimum required of him, but alas, he did not. The employer is not in any way obligated to randomly buy things the employee wants in the hopes that it helps. That is a waste of money and in some cases, those products can do more harm than good. There is a reason ADA requires medical documentation.

Your brother is an adult. He is responsible for his own health care. If I were in daily pain and it was getting worse, I would immediately be on the phone to a doctor. Heck, I have had CT and when I noticed symptoms, went to a doctor about them.

You seem to make much of the employer not filing a WC claim but it doesn't sound like your brother even tried. He had problems when he started there so it is unlikely WC should have applied to this employer. Even if he did file a claim, that does not mean he is "disabled" per ADA. Only a very tiny percentage of WC claims fall into that category and it is still up to the employee to pursue it.

If an employee can't even be bothered to do the minimum and see a doctor for a condition, it does not fall under ADA. It just doesn't. His uneducated belief that some product or other would help does not suffice.