Fraud in private used car sale ad in NC?

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apollodawson

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North Carolina
Hi. This's my first time here.

Wondering if any of this constitutes fraud in a private party used car sale ad? I'm in NC and recently discovered the antique car I bought has unexpected rust issues. It was advertised online from WA State, and I bought it after having a professional inspection.

Was the seller's ad fraudulent in stating he "started a no-expense spared restoration in 2014", while writing his 2020 advertisement? He made no statement of when the restoration was completed. But sometime before final painting circa 2016 he decided to skip over exploration for, and repair of any rust found. This was admittedly due to cost, and he deflects blame to the flawed "suggestion" by the restorer that rust was unlikely. Rust is widely, if not almost universally known to be the #1 nemesis of this vintage, make & model of cars. The restorer's website still proclaims expertise in this vintage and brand car, but he's no longer in business.

Can fraud result from the ad's misrepresentation of fact? … "Only minor surface rust repair needed in a few spots (above left rear taillight, below windshield frame, etc.). No structural rust or other body damage. New battery tray - the only body part that warranted replacement. No damage to longitudinal, underneath." The floor, including underneath, battery tray and "longitudinals" are all widely known rust prone areas of this model car. Furthermore, two partial rust repair patches adjacent to other rust compromised floor sections have been discovered.

Coincidentally, the car's exterior is beautiful, but hidden parts not usually accessed in a pre purchase inspection are ugly. For example the firewall between engine and cockpit is finished beautifully where visible, but shows rust on the hidden side. The firewall has two rust perforations covered only by beautifully a painted surface.

What would be expected of a reasonable person? … accept only the word & reputation of the restorer? … either check the work personally or take other measures such as requiring photos at important stages of the work?

Abundant documentation including pictures is available.

If you care to see the gory details, here's a link:

914World.com - The largest online 914 community!

914World.com is the fastest growing online 914 community! We have it all, classifieds, events, forums, vendors, parts, autocross, racing, technical articles, events calendar, newsletter, restoration, gallery, archives, history and more for your Porsche 914 ...
www.914world.com www.914world.com

Thanks for any insight. The seller's ("Mountainroads's") continued concerted efforts to turn himself, or the car, into the victim, is getting old and taking its toll on my psyche.

Regards,
Bob (Rufus)
 
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People frequently come here and say fraud like it's some sort of magic incantation that automatically brings divine punishment down on the perpetrator. An allegation of fraud requires proof of intent to defraud, nearly impossible in most cases A lot of folks also mistakenly think anything sneaky, deceptive, or nefarious constitutes "fraud."

I don't see any fraud there. His comment about rust is his opinion, which could differ from your opinion. There's also puffery.

Sorry, when you buy an old car, especially a classic, you buy it "as is."

But you take precautions. Assume that you aren't getting the full story. Do a thorough inspection and look for the worst.

Did you or your inspector get the car up on a lift before you bought it. I'm guessing no, otherwise you would have seen the rust underneath.

I've been a car collector for over 50 years. Any time I see the word "rust" in an ad, "minimal," I know that there is hidden rust. That's the nature of rust and why it's called cancer in the old car hobby.

Seems to me that you bought an incomplete restoration. That would be a red flag for me and I'd expect problems.

What's your goal here? Do you want to unwind the deal and get your money back? That's not gonna happen. Do you want "some" money to take care of the rust? Do you want to sue? From NC to WA state? That will cost you a fortune in travel and lawyer fees that you don't get back.

Or are you just here looking for magic words that will make the seller come clean and give you money? (Hint - there aren't any).
 
adjusterjack said:
People frequently come here and say fraud like it's some sort of magic incantation that automatically brings divine punishment down on the perpetrator. An allegation of fraud requires proof of intent to defraud, nearly impossible in most cases A lot of folks also mistakenly think anything sneaky, deceptive, or nefarious constitutes "fraud."

I don't see any fraud there. His comment about rust is his opinion, which could differ from your opinion. There's also puffery.

Sorry, when you buy an old car, especially a classic, you buy it "as is."

But you take precautions. Assume that you aren't getting the full story. Do a thorough inspection and look for the worst.

Did you or your inspector get the car up on a lift before you bought it. I'm guessing no, otherwise you would have seen the rust underneath.

I've been a car collector for over 50 years. Any time I see the word "rust" in an ad, "minimal," I know that there is hidden rust. That's the nature of rust and why it's called cancer in the old car hobby.

Seems to me that you bought an incomplete restoration. That would be a red flag for me and I'd expect problems.

What's your goal here? Do you want to unwind the deal and get your money back? That's not gonna happen. Do you want "some" money to take care of the rust? Do you want to sue? From NC to WA state? That will cost you a fortune in travel and lawyer fees that you don't get back.

Or are you just here looking for magic words that will make the seller come clean and give you money? (Hint - there aren't any).
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As painful as your truth is, I really appreciate your candor, adjusterjack. Thanks. Time to move on …
 
just for your information, unless he would have acid dipped the chassis and identified and removed all evidence of rust then it is very unlikely to be found and it is more likely they primed or painted over an issues thus masking them. Depending on who you hired as an inspector then they can sometimes provide this information as to what was done. I have had many vehicles inspected before I bought them and it has saved me from many bad decisions.
 
apollodawson said:
his 2020 advertisement
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The statute of limitations for a civil fraud lawsuit in Washington is three years.


apollodawson said:
I bought it after having a professional inspection.
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One of the elements of a fraud claim is reasonable reliance by the plaintiff on the defendant's alleged fraudulent representation. That you had a professional inspection done means you cannot have reasonably relied on any such representation.
 
In addition to the other comments, one expects some puffery in ads so you always have to be a bit wary of glowing claims made in ads. The ads should not, however, be outright false or misleading. On the criminal side, ads that contain false or misleading information in them are generally charged as unlawful or false advertising offenses rather than fraud. There might be a civil fraud claim to make from a false ad, but as zzddoodah points out, you need to have reasonably relied on the seller's claims to get your foot in the door on a fraud claim. It is well known that old cars tend to have problems lurking in them somewhere, and the current owner may not be aware of all of them. That's why the standard recommendation for any used car buyer is to have the car inspected by an independent mechanic. That doesn't guarantee that there won't be any problems found shortly after you buy it since some things you just can't see until it goes bad. But having inspections done by a trusted mechanic has saved me money by identifying real junkers that the seller tried to pass off as a decent quality car. When you buy used goods, if they turn out to be worse than you thought there typically isn't much you can do about that. Hence the old saying, "buyer beware", which is still true today,
 
Tax Counsel said:
Hence the old saying, "buyer beware", which is still true today
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All very goods points. As stated before, I'm moving on. The car's now listed for sale.

I understand the difficulty proving in court fraud happened. But I'm convinced it did. For the most part my conclusion is because it's unlikely a body shop would patch two significant size rust holes from underneath without the client's knowledge or input while not addressing many other smaller areas of lesser rust damage. Other evidence indicates one patch was recently covered from the inside.

I want to expose as much as I can to protect others without risking defamation.

What can I say, and what must I avoid?
 
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Understood.

But aren't you crossing a boundary in telling me what to do instead of answering my question?

I only seek guidance so I can alert others to a fraudster while keeping myself out of trouble.
 
apollodawson said:
But aren't you crossing a boundary in telling me what to do instead of answering my question?
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Only If you're GULLIBLE or STUPID by doing something an anonymous internet troll, maybe even AI, suggests.

Never entertain, much less ACT upon information provided by unknown, as in ANONYMOUS, internet entities!!!

You're not a dummy.

You're probably an intelligent, capable, responsible citizen.

You obey their laws, pay their taxes, and are a decent human being.

Heck, I bet you love your siblings, and your parents, too.
 
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