Companies Deleting Software

[Axel Slingerland]

Hello,

I don't know if I am posting this in the proper forum, but it's about what a business is legally allowed to do so this seems like it might fit here. If not, I apologize.

This is just to settle a debate on another forum. No laws have been broken that I'm aware of...

So I need assistance to find laws pertaining to whether a company would have the legal authority to access your computer and delete files from software that they own all rights to. Take for example, you buy a game from a large online gaming service's online store, you download the game, install it, and while playing said game you violate their terms of service somehow, and the service then bans you. Are they allowed to access your computer and delete the game?

The online service I'm referring to is international and the people I am discussing this with are from Germany and the Czech Republic, but if anyone is aware of a US Federal or California state law about this, it would be helpful.

Thank you in advance for any advice,

Axel Slingerland
Arcata, California

 

[zddoodah]

The following is based only on U.S. law.

I need assistance to find laws pertaining to whether a company would have the legal authority to access your computer and delete files from software that they own all rights to.

Likely, no law will cover this. and it will depend on what the license agreement for the software says.

for example, you buy a game from a large online gaming service's online store, you download the game, install it, and while playing said game you violate their terms of service somehow, and the service then bans you. Are they allowed to access your computer and delete the game?

This is unquestionably going to depend on the license agreement and terms of service.

 

[adjusterjack]

Are they allowed to access your computer and delete the game?

Very likely yes.

And very likely because you allow them to in the licensing agreement.

That kind of arrangement is quite common in the US, and I imagine so in the rest of the world.

Take Microsoft. I have Windows 10 on my computer. My license allows Microsoft to come to my computer, upgrade my OS files and remove those that are obsolete.

Take my bank. I have a checking account and a credit card. My account holder's agreement allows the bank to take money out of my checking account to pay my credit card bill if I am delinquent on the credit card bill. It's called the Right of Set Off. I know about it because I read the agreement.

The "law" you are seeking is the Law of Contracts. The Law of Contracts allows such agreements simply by not prohibiting them. You aren't likely to find a specific law that says it's OK.

 

[Axel Slingerland]

Thanks, guys. I appreciate it. Something I told these two guys I've been talking to about this was "I doubt that it is actually legal, in the truest sense of the word, with specific law described in detail that states it is allowed. But I also doubt that it's is illegal either." One of them kept saying he knows for a fact that it's legal, and it may be in the Czech Republic, but I effectively told him to put up or shut up and show me the text of whatever specific law he is referring to. So we'll see what he comes up with, if anything. I'm one of those people who don't like to speculate about things I have no knowledge of, and prefer to look things up before I speak. These guys are more of the "speak now and ask questions later" types.

I've always thought that License Agreements and Terms of Service agreements are legally the same as contracts, but I have never found a law that specifically states that. I have read however, that a lot of things many companies put in them may not necessarily be illegal to put in them, but they can be very difficult to enforce. Such as "No Right To Sue" clauses. Some people say they can say that, others say they can't, and still others say that would not be legally enforceable even if it is legal. If anyone knows for sure one way or the other, that would also be good to know.

Thank you again,

Ax

 

[adjusterjack]

If you want to learn about contracts buy this book.

Amazon.com: CONTRACTS TEXTS:RESTATEMENT 2D CONTRCT: 9781888870640: Professor James E. Byrne: Books

It's the book that law students learn from and judges refer to.

When you have studied the whole book, come back and we'll talk about contracts.

Otherwise, discussions about what's legal or not are a waste of time.

But I'll throw you a bone here. "No right to sue" clauses might be enforceable, they might not be." Depends on the terms and conditions of the entire contract.

And that's the key to your discussions. You can't effectively take a few words out of context. Find a contract that says that, post it here, and I'll give you my opinion as to whether that clause is enforceable.

 

[welkin]

Very likely yes.

And very likely because you allow them to in the licensing agreement.

That kind of arrangement is quite common in the US, and I imagine so in the rest of the world.

Take Microsoft. I have Windows 10 on my computer. My license allows Microsoft to come to my computer, upgrade my OS files and remove those that are obsolete.

Take my bank. I have a checking account and a credit card. My account holder's agreement allows the bank to take money out of my checking account to pay my credit card bill if I am delinquent on the credit card bill. It's called the Right of Set Off. I know about it because I read the agreement.

Sorry Jack but I have to disagree with your assertions. The only example that you use that might be analogues is Microsoft in that, they are updating your OS with your permission to access your computer. Even then, depending on your update settings, they ask for permission to update.

Your bank is not accessing your computer or phone to do the tasks that you describe. Those are done through your banking and online access service agreements.

So the question originally asked is about a private company having unfettered access to a computer to delete software if you violate the terms of service. The answer is no, they cannot.

But what they can do is disable the software without deleting it through an update or deny access to the online account or access to the company's cloud or website witch makes the software pretty much worthless.

I doubt you will find any service agreement that explicitly grants permission to a company to access a user's computer. Why? Because there is no way to isolate what they would have access to. That is a big privacy no no. Think about it. Even law enforcement needs a warrant to access your computer.

 

[Tax Counsel]

It's the book that law students learn from and judges refer to.

The text of the restatements of the law and the UCC are used by law students, but they are not typically their primary text. Their primary text will organize the law, both statutes and case law, in way that allows the students to grasp the essential parts they need to know. Then refer the students to the primary sources of law (statutes, regulations, court cases) and helpful treatises, like the restatement of the law series, to read the important parts that the their main course book/case book text is teaching them. Reading through those texts without any guidance or direction would take a long time and the student wouldn't know what the most important things are that he/she really needs to know. Learning just by reading the text of the law would be difficult and would take a whole lot longer than three years to learn what the student needs to know.

 

[Tax Counsel]

I've always thought that License Agreements and Terms of Service agreements are legally the same as contracts, but I have never found a law that specifically states that.

They often are contracts, but a court would need to have the details about the formation of the contract do determine that. You won't find much of contract law in your state statutes. Much of contract law is case law, meaning decisions made by the court determine the law. Laws that come from court decisions are known as the common law in pretty much every country in which English is the primary language because most of those countries had once been English colonies that were already used to the common law system Contract law and property law in particular have a very long history in English law going back centuries. State legislatures and Congress have largely been satisfied with the common law of contracts in this country and don't often step in to adopt a statute to change it.

I have read however, that a lot of things many companies put in them may not necessarily be illegal to put in them, but they can be very difficult to enforce.

Very few provisions in a contract are truly illegal, though there are some obvious ones like agreements to carry out a murder. Instead, the battle is generally over whether the term in the contract is enforceable, and on some issues the states differ on that, which why you see some conflicting information on the internet about them. The "no right to sue" provisions are one of those. States have different approaches as when that kind of thing will be enforceable and which won't be. So for your question on that it is incredibly important to read the state court decisions on it to figure out what flies and what doesn't. That's what you go to contract attorneys for.

I couldn't tell you how CA law treats it. I'm not in CA and CA is one of a couple of states that like to go their own way on some things (often hoping the other states will adopt the same approach, and often being disappointed when the other states aren't interested in that. However, I suspect that on this issue CA makes a significant distinction between consumer contracts and contracts between businesses. Businesses are regarded as not needing the same kind of protection that consumers to. My state makes that distinction, and it is not nearly as liberal and consumer oriented as CA is.

And you can tell your foreign friends that in the U.S. nearly all the contract law is state law. Federal law does not regulate contracts much other than contracts with the federal government itself.