Right on red violation. Tried to make the turn on yellow, was .9 sec late, got ticket

[NickT916]

Hello, im a class A driver, havent had a ticket in some 5-6 years, just few months ago go a ticket for going 45 in a 35 zone, however, everyone goes 40-45 there because its a 5 lane street with hardly any traffic... i tried to fight it but lost. I believe for class A drivers its 2 points? fines double, no traffic school... very unfair!!! im shocked there was nothing that could be done, would a bad female driver deserve only a .5 point, since she has less experience than i supposedly do?... this was on my personal vehicle, the rules must change!!!

Anyways... now just couple weeks ago i was making a right turn, i was going about 25mph into a turn, and tried to rush to make the light before it turned red. obviously i could not have slammed on the brakes on the SUV going 25 mph into a turn, otherwise i would have flipped it, so i had no choice but to keep going, The picture shows the red light was .9 sec red as i made the turn, i was very upset as i made the turn safely, and there is no vehicle in the world that can make accross an intersection in .9 seconds and hit me.

i want to fight this!!! i need some help please!! i sold the vehicle 10 days after the red light violation,
i dont have a front license plate so how can they match my face with the plate on the front if i dont have one?
who would i fight in court against if there was no officer that pulled me over?
dont the red light cameras count as speed traps that are not legal?
do i have a chance at winning this?
i need all the help i can get, i cant have 4 points on my record in a few months, thats to much insurance and fines, and its really unfair, i dont know what to do guys

bellow i have a video of my violation, yes technically i ran the red light, but dont i have a case for no license plate on the front? would the camera operator have to be present in court to prove the case, not having the car anymore would help me in this case? illegal speed trap argument?

bellow the video i have included the pictures that the camera took, the front picture doesnt even show the front bumper, so they either edited it to not show the front plate so i dont notice and not fight with that argument, or just bad picture taken because i was going 25mph into a turn, any advice would be appreciated, i cant afford another stupid ticket again

 

[jharris352]

You know, I don't mean to be rude but what's "not fair" about all of this? I speed too, but part of speeding is you get tickets. In the end you pretty much end up paying them. I put mine off as far as they will let me and then negotiate them down under the speed that will keep them off my license. (I don't know what that is in CA).

As for your right on red as I looked at the pictures I can't form an argument that you stopped first on the right on red. You were actually 1.72 seconds after the red light since the first picture was taken before you crossed the white line, which I find odd. Do they take pictures of every car near the white line? Your argument about the license isn't going to help because they have one of your rear plate. If a plate is required on the front it may even get you another ticket in court.

I love to beat tickets and I would love to help you, but it looks like you are pretty much caught red handed. Sorry....

 

[mightymoose]

The unfair part is that California prohibits commercial drivers from taking drivers safety classes to keep a point off the record... even if they were not driving commercially in their personal vehicle.
If this was a traffic ticket you got in the mail due to a picture taken at an intersection then it may be beatable. The red light can not appear and testify.

 

[jharris352]

The red light can not appear and testify.

I respectfully disagree Mr. Moose! I just had to say it that way. . . I don't know about CA but in most states intersections with cameras are marked with signs. With that warning you are put on notice that you could be photographed in a traffic violation. The person who reviews those photographs can testify to the particulars of the photograph and you can be convicted on that evidence.

 

[mightymoose]

I haven't been through this situation myself, by my understanding is that many jurisdictions within California will toss the citation if it is contested. I suppose that in this case the poster should go back and look to see if there are any signs.

I suppose the reasoning is along the same lines for why traffic citations can not be issued from aircraft... CHP on the ground has to verify speed with their own radar before they can issue a citation. They can't cite based only on the observation from the aircraft. Well... they can write the citation... but if it is contested it will be an automatic toss.

 

[NickT916]

i gotten a ticket from a plane before, pulled over by CHP, i went to court, plane guy showed up, but car guy didnt, and it was dismissed... as for the camera, can anyone show up and say, yea i reviewed the tape and i say hes guilty... or does it have to be the person who actually signed my sitation??? because first i got a letter showing me the pictures and where and when.... then i got a ticket a week later.

on the first letter with photos at the bottom it says...

"I, john Cameron of redflex traffic system.. address so and so phoenix AZ, do certify that im over 18 and not party to the above entitle case. On sep16th i places this notice to appear in an envelope addressed to the registered owner, sealed it and deposited the envelope to USPS and phoenix AZ... it was stammed yada yada and mailed. I declare under penalty of perjury under the laws of CA that the foregoing is true and correct"

signed by john cameron...

would this be the person who would need to appear in court against me?


also there is another signed section

"Violation was not commited in my presence, so and so was based on a photo evidence... i declare under penalty..... that the above is true"

declarant JSCHAFFER and signed by this person...

i would love to do traffic school, but i cant because im a class A driver!!!
i will probably get 2 points for this because im a class A driver!!!!
i want to beat this ticket!!!

seems like the only good case i have is, i was going to fast into a turn before the right turned red and it was to dangerious to stop at an angle, so i had to go through the turn to prevent a roll over, in a straight line i could have stopped because a car cannot roll over forward lol

 

[mightymoose]

Sounds like John Cameron is the person that works for the company that operates the camera and who notified the local PD.
Schaffer is the officer that issued the citation and will appear in court.
Since Schaffer apparently is the one that reviewed the photos and contacted police it seems reasonable to expect that he appear in court as well. If he is in Arizona then its unlikely he will show. There may be regulations in place that don't require his appearance though, or hsi written statement might be accepted.

Are there signs about cameras at the intersection? I see a big white sign in the photo, so I am guessing yes.
Has the camera been there more than 30 days?
If so has it been regularly inspected or recently calibrated?
Is the yellow light at that intersection a "fast yellow"?
Does your citation have a court date on it or is it just telling you to pay fines?

The best situation you could have hoped for is that the photos didn't show your face... then you could at least argue that you were not the driver. It looks like they got you though.

I feel your pain on the commercial license laws. I didn't renew mine just for that reason. It probably won't amount to much, but if you really feel wronged by the different treatment due to the class of your license, write to your state representative about it.

Also, in court, even if you are held responsible, raise the issue with the judge and ask for traffic school to keep the points off. Worst he can say is no.

 

[NickT916]

yea class A and points sucks, i wish it would only apply when you are driving a Class A vehicle only... seems fair enough. There is a sign for camera yes, but its hasnt been long since they put them up, would thi smake a difference to when it was put up?

when i show up to court the second time and the operator shows up, should i request papers like, certification for the camera operating, calibration records for the camera, maintnance records? this must be provided in writing during the hearing, and if not then it might be dismissed or rescheduled?

i got the fine, with court date, and it was a normal yellow.

if i plead not guilty, a DA person, usually trys to talk to you and work something out with you, in order not to reschedule another date, cant something be worked out to replace this violation for something that would not give me a point on my record and pay the same fine penalty?

 

[jharris352]

All you can do it try.

 

[mightymoose]

If the sign has been up more than 30 days then the ticket will stick.
I believe you can request the maintenance/calibration records for the camera- but you will have to investigate the proper procedure and time to request those items. That said, I see the picture clearly shows you behind the line when the light is red, and the timing is really in your favor. If it showed you being 5 seconds late then you would need calibration records... but 0.9 is in your favor.

At any rate, your argument in court should be something along the lines that acknowledges you saw the yellow light but due to your speed and proximity to the intersection you didn't feel you could stop before the limit line safely.

I doubt a police officer would have cited you if one had been present and witnessed it unless it appeared you accelerated into the turn. If you argue from a safety standpoint (and I don't recommend you argue that you were worried about flipping it because that is bogus) you might be best off. Your prior record isn't helping you much either, but maybe you can convince them to allow you to keep it off your record with traffic school.

Best thing you can do is slow down, drive more responsibly, and not put yourself in these situations. You admit you were trying to beat the light- that isn't what it is there for.

 

[NickT916]

i went to my first trial, we set court date for 12/11 ... how can i request for a actual judge and not a commissioner?
By asking for a actual judge, does this give me more time, better chances? I dont even know who is supposed to show up in court against me, actual cop? or some technician?

should i ask questions like, do you have a certificate to operate the light camera? calibration papers? papers to show when the camera last serviced? any other good questions?

 

[tpajet]

The white line that goes across the road at the intersection is called the stop line. One key question is this - was your vehicle past the stop line before the light turned red? If it was, I would use that as an argument in court.

 

[mightymoose]

That argument won't go far. The yellow light that precedes the red is not a signal to hurry up and get across the line... it is a signal telling you to prepare to stop. in his case he was still moving at a decent speed when the light changed...
The best argument, if there is one, is that the turn was made safely without effecting other traffic. The 0.9 second gap is not much more than the blink of an eye.
After reviewing the law on the cameras I really think he is stuck with this one. Your argument may get the fine reduced, but won't likely get the ticket tossed.

 

[NickT916]

Can i go to court in person and ask for article 6 judge for my hearing? or do they have forms there available i can fill out on the spot?

 

[NickT916]

I went to the court a few days before my trial, and i was able to reschedule my court date to 1/14/10 due to my work schedule. I also requested for a Judge not a commissioner on that day and they noted that on the trial date change.

I bought and downloaded the Traffic manual volume 3 with the forms examples and such, and for me the there is a "answer and demurrer to photo red light citation" form example.

There is statements like, i cant be a witness against myself, since there was no office to pull me over. How i didnt sign a ticket to promise to appear. with few other good points... with this form, do i fill out my personal info and present it to the judge on the day of the trial or give it to a clerk/DA? im a bit confused about that part. Not sure what to do with it.

i will also try and gather together the questions ill need to ask the officer that didnt pull me over... but an officer is assigned to be a witness against me in my case, they said, when i asked how will an officer appear if he didnt pull me over, they said, someone has to view the videos.

 

[mightymoose]

You want to have all your paperwork turned in to the court prior to your court date if possible. Make sure you have a couple extra copies of everything just in case.

 

[NickT916]

My trial is today, since there is no front license plate, can i just simply stick to "The driver cant be identified and cant be matched with the car because there is no front licence plate, and the rear licence plate cant be matched with the driver" also since i know i sold the car, i dont have to say i sold it, because it was 10 days after the ticket, but since i dont know who owns the car i can add that "i dont know who owns the car and the driver could have been anyone"

if the judge asks if it was me drivining the vehicle, do i have to only answer yes or no? or can i just say, "there is no evidence proving me as the driver of that car" ?

 

[jharris352]

You are not required to make any statements. They have to prove it is you. All you do is plead NOT GUILTY

 

[mightymoose]

Your license plate argument won't fly. The plate matches the vehicle, and it clearly shows you as the driver. The images are timestamped, so your argument won't work.
Don't argue about ownership of the truck... a quick look at the records will show you owned it at the time. If a judge asks you a question then keep the answer short and simple. The more you talk the more likely you are to blow it.

Your best approach is to ask questions of the person that cited you, and if that person is not there, or another person is sent in their place, you should be able to make a big stink over it.

All that said, I imagine by now you have already been through court... so I guess we will hear the results soon.

 

[NickT916]

I did not win the case, firstly, officer met me outside of court room and tried asking me what info i have and what evidence i was going to use against my case. i told him that ill just do what i can in court, i dont want 2 points on my record and i cant admit that im the driver of that vehicle. I was pretty nervous the whole time and i had ti wait in the court for about an hour or longer to get called up.

Officer presented his case first, with pictures and video of the case. My first statement i think was about the vehicle turning right, going through the intersection at 25mph and it would not have been safe for it to slam on the brakes and stop before the line, it might have skidded into the intersection and possibly would have flipped over being a tall SUV

I then said that there is no front plate on the front and the vehicle cant be matched with the drivers face and that the back plate cant be matched with the driver. The judge pretty much shut this one down because there is a video and pictures and that its impossible for it not to be me.

i then stated things like i cant be a witness against myself and there was no witness at the scene, and that i didnt sign a promise to appear etc etc and used article and section numbers to back it up, that didnt seem to work with the judge either

I also cross examined the officer and i asked him to provide some paper showing me when the camera was installed... he said he didnt have it... i asked him to provide a certificate of training to operate this camera, or view it and use it as evidence etc... officer stated that he received the training, it was a one day class blah blah and they dont provide the certificate... i tried to argue that how can you receive training and not have a certificate to prove this training... judge asked me if i have proof that officer is obligated to have a certificate after this training... that kinda ticked me off a little

so basically i think i tried everything i could, and at the end i said that im going to appeal this case, i was also thinking of maybe getting a retrial by a different judge because i felt discriminated in a way, and that the state of california constitution articles were almost ignored in my case.. even if i was the driver of the vehicle... i dont know if appeal would mean a re trial or if it will be just someone reviewing the paperwork and sending me a letter that it was denied or what not... kinda sucks for me

im going to try and get a recording from the court, i think its like $10 to get a copy and i was maybe post it here if someone is interested in hearing it, maybe there is some things in there i can use in the appeal in my defense.

i decided to stretch out the $471 fine and do payments, the longer i pay the longer i think it stays off the record at least, who knows....