Revocable trust beneficiary and reporting

[Sbanana]

Jurisdiction

Utah

My sister is Trustee for my living mother's trust, which I believe is revocable as she wants access to funds. My sister will not provide any info on the trust and said Attorney told her not to as it is my mom's private business. Do I as a beneficiary after her death have the right to request a copy of the trust now?

 

[Tax Counsel]

My sister is Trustee for my living mother's trust, which I believe is revocable as she wants access to funds. My sister will not provide any info on the trust and said Attorney told her not to as it is my mom's private business. Do I as a beneficiary after her death have the right to request a copy of the trust now?

Generally state laws provide that when a trust is revocable the beneficiaries of the trust have no right to information about the trust because the beneficiaries have no vested rights in the trust — the trust creator can simply revoke the trust at any time and take away whatever the beneficiary would have received. It is after the trust creator dies and the trust becomes irrevocable that trust beneficiaries typically get a right to see the trust or at least the portions of it that pertain to them.

 

[welkin]

My sister will not provide any info on the trust and said Attorney told her not to as it is my mom's private business

Then ask your mother.

 

[adjusterjack]

My sister is Trustee for my living mother's trust, which I believe is revocable as she wants access to funds.

Who wants access to funds? Your mother or your sister?

Do I as a beneficiary after her death have the right to request a copy of the trust now?

Now?

Why didn't your mother give you a copy when the trust was first created?

Then ask your mother.

Yeah, that.

 

[Sbanana]

Then ask your mother.

I did and she defers to my sister who won't. I thought in UT we might have a right to see it even if it is revocable.

 

[Sbanana]

Who wants access to funds? Your mother or your sister?



Now?

Why didn't your mother give you a copy when the trust was first created?
I had copy originally but they moved out of state and a new one was done and now I can't see it.


Yeah, that.

Sorry I wrote this late at night and didn't clarify…my mom wants to access funds until she dies so that is why I assume trust is revocable

 

[Sbanana]

S

Who wants access to funds? Your mother or your sister?



Now?

Why didn't your mother give you a copy when the trust was first created?



Yeah, that.

She is paranoid and should be incapacitated but won't see a doctor

 

[Tax Counsel]

Sorry I wrote this late at night and didn't clarify…my mom wants to access funds until she dies so that is why I assume trust is revocable

If the trust is governed by UT law then the trust is revocable unless the trust specifies its not revocable. Revocable trusts are by far the most common type of trusts used to today for estate planning. So yes, the odds are very good it's a revocable trust.

I did and she defers to my sister who won't. I thought in UT we might have a right to see it even if it is revocable.

In Utah, to have a right to see the trust, you must be a qualified beneficiary. A qualified beneficiary is:

(h) "Qualified beneficiary" means a beneficiary who, on the date the beneficiary's qualification is determined:

(i) is a current distributee or permissible distributee of trust income or principal; or
(ii) would be a distributee or permissible distributee of trust income or principal if the trust terminated on that date.
​

Utah Code § 75-7-103(h). Most beneficiaries of a revocable trust will not meet that definition until the trust creator dies and the trust becomes irrevocable.

What good would getting the trust copy now do you? Unless you are entitled to distributions of income or principal during her lifetime (which is uncommon in the typical revocable living trust) that copy will do you no good because your mother can just revoke the trust at any time, at which point the trust is worthless. It's like trying to get a copy of a will from someone before they die. There is no point because the testator (person who creates a will) can rip up that will at any time before he or she dies, making the will worthless.

 

[adjusterjack]

Sbanana, please don't open new threads for anything connected to this issue. I've deleted the duplicate thread as I suspect your new question also has to do with your mother.

New question from Sbanana:

Do attorneys often advise the POA not to provide a copy to family members?

 

[Tax Counsel]

Do attorneys often advise the POA not to provide a copy to family members?

With a trust, there is the person who creates the trust, there is the trustee who manages the trust, and there are the beneficiaries who benefit from the trust. When it comes to a revocable living trust, a lawyer advising the trustee of the trust (who is often also the trust creator) what obligations the trustee has. When it comes to providing a copy of the trust, the lawyer will generally tell the trustee that copies are not required to be provided to anyone, and what the pros and cons are of providing copies to beneficiaries named in the trust prior to the creator's death. Generally I tell clients that they need not, and should not provide copies of the actual trust document to the beneficiaries but that it can be a good idea to discuss with their close family members, especially spouses and kids, what their general estate plans are.

 

[zddoodah]

Do I as a beneficiary after her death have the right to request a copy of the trust now?

You have the right to request anything you like. What you likely don't have is the right to compel your sister to provide you any information about your mother's trust.

How do you know that you're "a beneficiary after [your mother's] death"? You clearly don't have a copy of the trust, so how could you know this? Even if you will be a beneficiary after your mother's death, such a person has no rights regarding a revocable trust.

Do attorneys often advise the POA not to provide a copy to family members?

I doubt most attorneys advise one way or the other about this unless the trustee (not "the POA") solicits such advice, and no one here could possibly have reliable data about what attorneys "often" or usually do under such circumstances (especially since any advice on that subject will be very fact-specific).

 

[Sbanana]

Thanks for info and I had asked POA question in separate thread as that was not about trust but about the POA document. Question was would there be a reason why a POA would not want to share info. Concern is whether the POA can act now or only if mom is incapacitated as her old POA document (where I was alternate POA and had copy) said. My siblings and I don't know why all the secrecy.

As far as how I know there is a trust is I had been told that by mom. My mom started all this suspicion as she is calling the kids who are not POAs and saying the POAs are stealing from her. I saw her last week and she did not know her POAs are acting without her knowledge and thought only when she was incapacitated. She tries to ask but is told not to worry.

 

[justblue]

Thanks for info and I had asked POA question in separate thread as that was not about trust but about the POA document. Question was would there be a reason why a POA would not want to share info. Concern is whether the POA can act now or only if mom is incapacitated as her old POA document (where I was alternate POA and had copy) said. My siblings and I don't know why all the secrecy.

As far as how I know there is a trust is I had been told that by mom. My mom started all this suspicion as she is calling the kids who are not POAs and saying the POAs are stealing from her. I saw her last week and she did not know her POAs are acting without her knowledge and thought only when she was incapacitated. She tries to ask but is told not to worry.

Does your mother have any cognitive issues such as dementia or Alzheimers? If not, she should be able to revoke the POA.

 

[Sbanana]

Another question if you don't mind. Ok so sister is mom's POA but is NOT my dad's. My dad has dementia and sister is making decisions on hospice and other info and says acting as my mom's POA (as mom is POA now for my dad.) However, if my mom is not the one making decisions on my dad nor does she know what is going on, shouldn't the first alternate (my brother) for my DAD be taking over? I don't think my mom's POA steps in over the altérnate for my dad. Do we first need to have my mom diagnosed as incapacitated and then legally my brother can take over as my dad's POA?

 

[zddoodah]

Question was would there be a reason why a POA would not want to share info.

Just because clear terminology is important, let's look at the term "POA." It is an acronym that stands for "power of attorney." A power of attorney is a document that gives one person (the agent or attorney-in-fact) authority to deal with third persons on behalf of another person (the principal). Let me emphasize that a POA is a document. It is not a person.

With respect to a trust, the person who makes the trust (in this case, your mother) is called the trustor or settlor. The person who handles the assets that are part of the trust is called the trustee. It is not "a POA."

With that said, if a person doesn't want to share info, of course there is a reason. There is a reason for everything.

My mom started all this suspicion as she is calling the kids who are not POAs and saying the POAs are stealing from her.

Then she should call the police.

I saw her last week and she did not know her POAs are acting without her knowledge and thought only when she was incapacitated. She tries to ask but is told not to worry.

She "tries to ask" or she actually does ask?

It would be very helpful if you had answered this question:

Does your mother have any cognitive issues such as dementia or Alzheimers?

shouldn't the first alternate (my brother) for my DAD be taking over?

Not sure what you mean by "first alternate."

Do we first need to have my mom diagnosed as incapacitated and then legally my brother can take over as my dad's POA?

Seems to me that you ought to be consulting with an attorney who handles elder law matters about several things, including the possibility of establishing a conservatorship or conservatorships for one or both of your parents.

The alternative is to have a dialog with your sister whom you seem to suspect is engaging in various nefarious conduct.

 

[Sbanana]

Thanks for lnfo and yes I know POA is a document but using verbiage we use in our family..like my sister saying I am POA but to your point should say I have POA document. Even the care center asked me when parents moved in who are the POAs so maybe it is just a thing here and not everywhere to use that term. And sorry my two questions were placed in same thread as I had POA and trustee questions.

My sister who has POA document (and is a co trustee for that issue) will NOT allow my mom to be seen by doctor and my mom does NOT want to as she thinks she has just normal old age "forgetfulness." I saw her last week and asked her whether she wants to see a doctor at least for US to know what she may have and she said no and she doesn't want meds if she has something.

she "tells" my sister in emails to all kids to send us POA and Trust documents and where her money is and my sister will immediately call her and have her send new emails saying no my mom does want that shared. Then a few hours later my mom will send email
Again saying she wants it sent out. Also she has specifically told my sister in front of me she wants to know what's going on with my dad. (I had not started this issue over POA and trust but after my
mom sent emails than I called my mom to confirm she wanted to and she said yes and for me to tell my sister to do it.)

my sister and i had good relationship before this recent issue…in fact we moved parents from MI to UT so we both could assist and visit them. So this is why I am shocked with what is happening now….and a little suspicious.


Alternate poa is a Michigan term from the POA document I have listing me as such for my mom and dad …it may be successor in other poa documents in other states


i was planning to see attorney but found this forum and thought I would just ask here to see whether I was right to be concerned

 

[justblue]

Please answer the question on post 14. Thanks.

 

[zddoodah]

At the end of the day, if you want something done, you'll need local elder care authorities involved or to obtain a conservatorship. That said, if your mother is mentally competent, then she's in control of her medical decisions.