NJ dealership won't give me tags

[DBerwick56]

Jurisdiction

New Jersey

My grandfather consigned on my previous car since I was just starting out and didn't have good credit. I made the payments and the car was in my name. But it was also in his name until the car was paid off. In which the car would strictly become mine. At least that's what the bank told me. My grandfather sadly passed away in January. So I went into lease a new car in March, and the dealership needed a official state death certificate. Which I gave them. They also told me they need a surrogate letter from the estate. I told them there is no surrogate letter. They in turn told me they need the letter or the deal would fall through. So I said I was leaving. The dealership contacted lawyers at Kia as well as there GM and they got back to me saying that the death certificate would be enough. So we signed all the paperwork, made the deal and I left with my new car, trading in my old. Nowhere in the contract we signed does it say anything about a death certificate. Now a month later they are calling me every day asking if I have a surrogate letter. They said they're having issues with the title and need the surrogate letter for my trade in. I've told them multiple times there is no letter and that they told me the death certificate is enough and the deal is done. I've made payments on the car already. They're hounding me for paperwork that doesn't exist.

After going back and forth playing phone tag I called because my temporary plates expired. The dealership won't give me my normal plates until they get a surrogate letter. Their exact words to me were "Under no circumstances will we give you your tags without the surrogate letter. You'll have to drive around forever with no tags if you don't."

I had financed the car through PNC and I contacted them and they said they mailed the title and the car was paid off by the dealership.

I then said since we are at a stalemate that they give me my car back, take theirs and go our separate ways. They told me they sold my other car already. They told me they are having problems with the title, hence why they won't give me my tags, but then they sold my car anyway. Now I have two problems. No tags, and they sold my grandmothers half of the car without contacting her in anyway.

It all made sense to me now, the dealership screwed up and sold a car without the consent of the estate, hence why they are holding my tags over my head and refusing to give them to me. Even though the contract states I paid for tags and registration.

Unfortunately my grandmother isn't willing to create a will, give it to a lawyer and then submit it to the state and have it become public record just so this dealership can get a surrogate letter. I made myself very clear from the beginning we weren't willing to do this and they still sold me the car under the impression that the state death certificate was enough. Now they're going back on their word.

So my question is, do I have a legal case? Can I sue this dealership for breach of contract for not providing me with my tags. Do we also have a case now that they sold a car that is still in my/grandmothers name? Where should I go from here. I'm so angry that at this point I want to completely void the contract and go our separate ways. Any advice would be great!

 

[Highwayman]

You post is very confusing and unclear. There are alot of unnecessary details.

You did not make it clear if the first car was paid off or not.

I also don't understand why your grandmother needs a will for this transaction if she is still alive.

 

[DBerwick56]

You post is very confusing and unclear. There are alot of unnecessary details.

You did not make it clear if the first car was paid off or not.

I also don't understand why your grandmother needs a will for this transaction if she is still alive.

I am sorry for the confusion, the first car was not paid off. I owed on it still. I also don't understand why my grandmother needs the will either. They're demanding it though.

 

[army judge]

I am sorry for the confusion, the first car was not paid off. I owed on it still. I also don't understand why my grandmother needs the will either. They're demanding it though.

In whose name(s) was car number 1 titled?

A cosigner on an auto loan generally has no ownership interests in the automobile. The cosigner simply is guaranteeing to make good on the note if the other party defaults.

You might want to speak to this NJ state agency (Bureau of Licensing Services) to see if there is a resolution available:

State of NJ
Business Licensing Services Bureau
P.O. Box 170
Trenton, New Jersey 08666-0170
(609) 984-1122 (Office)
(609) 341-3314 (Fax)
EMAIL: mvcblsinvestigations@mvc.nj.gov




Complaint form:


http://www.state.nj.us/mvc/pdf/Business_Licenses/BLS_Customer_Complaint_Form.pdf

...

 

[DBerwick56]

In whose name(s) was car number 1 titled?

A cosigner on an auto loan generally has no ownership interests in the automobile. The cosigner simply is guaranteeing to make good on the note if the other party defaults.

You might want to speak to this NJ state agency (Bureau of Licensing Services) to see if there is a resolution available:

State of NJ
Business Licensing Services Bureau
P.O. Box 170
Trenton, New Jersey 08666-0170
(609) 984-1122 (Office)
(609) 341-3314 (Fax)
EMAIL: mvcblsinvestigations@mvc.nj.gov




Complaint form:


http://www.state.nj.us/mvc/pdf/Business_Licenses/BLS_Customer_Complaint_Form.pdf

...

By error, it was in both our names. It shouldn't of been but it was.

 

[adjusterjack]

I hate to have to tell you this but the problem was caused by you and your grandmother, not the dealer.

Your grandfather was part owner of your car. When he died, your grandmother inherited that part ownership BUT, since the car was his separate property she would have had to have opened probate with the surrogate court and obtained "letters testamentary" (aka surrogate letter) authorizing her to act on behalf of your grandfather's estate which would have allowed her to sign over the title to you, at which time you could have transferred the title into your own name and you wouldn't be in this mess now.

So, both of you failed to comply with the probate and title laws of your state. I know - you didn't know. That's irrelevant. Laws make you responsible for compliance even when you don't know that they exist.

Unfortunately my grandmother isn't willing to create a will, give it to a lawyer and then submit it to the state and have it become public record just so this dealership can get a surrogate letter.

I have no idea what you mean by that or where you got the idea from but she doesn't have to "create a will" to get a surrogate letter.

All she needs to do is apply to the local surrogate court for her letters and then she can sign whatever papers the dealer needs that goes along with the surrogate letter.

You want to spend thousands on a lawyer to sue the dealer for the rescission of the deal, while you drive without tags, or not drive at all, and likely lose the lawsuit, be my guest.

The surrogate court route is cheaper and faster and if your grandmother doesn't want to do it you can apply to become representative of your grandfather's estate if she doesn't object.

Once you get appointed representative, the dealer will have to accept your surrogate letter and signature to complete the deal.

Consult a probate attorney, if you have to, because probate is the place to start to get this fixed, otherwise it doesn't get fixed and you risk a repo and trashed credit.

 

[DBerwick56]

I hate to have to tell you this but the problem was caused by you and your grandmother, not the dealer.

Your grandfather was part owner of your car. When he died, your grandmother inherited that part ownership BUT, since the car was his separate property she would have had to have opened probate with the surrogate court and obtained "letters testamentary" (aka surrogate letter) authorizing her to act on behalf of your grandfather's estate which would have allowed her to sign over the title to you, at which time you could have transferred the title into your own name and you wouldn't be in this mess now.

So, both of you failed to comply with the probate and title laws of your state. I know - you didn't know. That's irrelevant. Laws make you responsible for compliance even when you don't know that they exist.



I have no idea what you mean by that or where you got the idea from but she doesn't have to "create a will" to get a surrogate letter.

All she needs to do is apply to the local surrogate court for her letters and then she can sign whatever papers the dealer needs that goes along with the surrogate letter.

You want to spend thousands on a lawyer to sue the dealer for the rescission of the deal, while you drive without tags, or not drive at all, and likely lose the lawsuit, be my guest.

The surrogate court route is cheaper and faster and if your grandmother doesn't want to do it you can apply to become representative of your grandfather's estate if she doesn't object.

Once you get appointed representative, the dealer will have to accept your surrogate letter and signature to complete the deal.

Consult a probate attorney, if you have to, because probate is the place to start to get this fixed, otherwise it doesn't get fixed and you risk a repo and trashed credit.

Why a month and a half later then? Why didn't they contact me stating there is a problem? In your opinion do you really believe that this isn't a legal case? I felt like the deal went through and therefore things after really aren't my problem. Plus the dealership is not willing to work with me in anyway. They're playing hardball and I'm fed up. I talked to an attorney who said I had a case, but he made it seem like it was so simple, hence why I'm on here.

 

[Highwayman]

I felt like the deal went through...

You were not permitted to sign the car over to the dealer by yourself since it was half owned by your grandfather. Seems as though someone at the dealership let that slip through.

If the dealership screwed up and allowed the vehicle to be taken in trade that doesn't mean you are not not responsible to follow through.

You need to get the estate issue resolved ASAP and worry about the rest later on. As Jack stated your grandmother doesn't need a will but she needs to appropriately address the issues that involve her.

The dealership wants this resolved quickly because I'm sure they can get into a lot of trouble for taking and selling that car since there were ownership "issues".

So, what kind of a "case" does this attorney think you have?

 

[DBerwick56]

You were not permitted to sign the car over to the dealer by yourself since it was half owned by your grandfather. Seems as though someone at the dealership let that slip through.

If the dealership screwed up and allowed the vehicle to be taken in trade that doesn't mean you are not not responsible to follow through.

You need to get the estate issue resolved ASAP and worry about the rest later on. As Jack stated your grandmother doesn't need a will but she needs to appropriately address the issues that involve her.

The dealership wants this resolved quickly because I'm sure they can get into a lot of trouble for taking and selling that car since there were ownership "issues".

So, what kind of a "case" does this attorney think you have?

The simplest way to put it is this;
The dealership screwed up by taking the car without the sarogate letter. That's mistake one. The second being they're holding your plates as leverage for a document that even if you wanted to, have legally no power to get. He thinks it's not my problem. The dealership screwed up.

 

[army judge]

The simplest way to put it is this;
The dealership screwed up by taking the car without the sarogate letter. That's mistake one. The second being they're holding your plates as leverage for a document that even if you wanted to, have legally no power to get. He thinks it's not my problem. The dealership screwed up.

In densely populated states, NJ is one, civil court cases can take anywhere from 18-24 months to get docketed.

The litigation can continue for another 12-24 months, depending on how well endowed your defendant is, mate.

I tell my clients I'll fight as hard as humanly possible to get the outcome they seek.

I make no other promises.

I then tell them my craps story: I place a $10 bet on the pass line, make a come out point of six, take max odds (40 times my bet) and throw BIG RED.

The only difference is, your pass line bet and odds won't be snatched up as quickly.

Sure, you can litigate, mate.

How long are you prepared to wait?

Don't think your defendant is without a defense.

Remember all those times you were asked to bring them that document?

That could get your case summarily dismissed as you lacking a cause of action.

Lawsuits are always a gamble, many times fraught with great personal and financial risks.

 

[Highwayman]

You'd be more successful in getting somewhere by filing a complaint with the NJ Motor Vehicle Commission - a licensed dealership made a rather large error. Who knows, you may get some compensation from the dealership by even threatening to file a complaint with the MVC.

Why don't you just get your grandmother to do the right thing and get this over with. She is the one holding you up.

 

[Highwayman]

By the way, what's going on with the title for the "new" car? Do you have it?

 

[adjusterjack]

The simplest way to put it is this;
The dealership screwed up by taking the car without the sarogate letter. That's mistake one. The second being they're holding your plates as leverage for a document that even if you wanted to, have legally no power to get. He thinks it's not my problem. The dealership screwed up.

That's right.

But the probate and title laws still have to be complied with in spite of the dealer's mistake.

You may be entitled to indemnification for any costs you incur to make this right but what you don't get is to cancel the deal or cancel the financing or get your other car back.

As I and Army Judge wrote, you are welcome to pay your lawyer a few thousand for a retainer against $300 per hour to litigate your "case" while your car sits in your driveway (or you rack up citations) and you keep making the payments.

Or, you can hop on down to the local surrogate court, get the forms and instructions, and deal with this quickly.

Self preservation is nobody's business but your own.

 

[DBerwick56]

That's right.

But the probate and title laws still have to be complied with in spite of the dealer's mistake.

You may be entitled to indemnification for any costs you incur to make this right but what you don't get is to cancel the deal or cancel the financing or get your other car back.

As I and Army Judge wrote, you are welcome to pay your lawyer a few thousand for a retainer against $300 per hour to litigate your "case" while your car sits in your driveway (or you rack up citations) and you keep making the payments.

Or, you can hop on down to the local surrogate court, get the forms and instructions, and deal with this quickly.

Self preservation is nobody's business but your own.

So nobody here things I really have a legal case?

 

[txls]

Regardless of what they told you, the law requires certain documents to transfer ownership of a vehicle when one of the parties is deceased and that burden to provide all required documents is entirely on you. At this point the dealership could sue YOU and easily win. I've worked for auto dealerships for 35 years. Please trust me on this. You will get nowhere with "well they told me wrong..." Sales people are not lawyers or title experts.
Your grandmother does not need a will. She needs to probate your grandfather's estate. Or if she is clearly his only heir based on your state, she may be able to simply provide an affidavit of heirship along with the copy of the will, then she can sign over the title. These rules and procedures vary by state so your state may be a little different. You need to go talk to the DMV and have them tell you exactly what you need, then you need to comply as soon as possible.
On the other hand, the dealership is probably in violation by withholding the plates on your new vehicle. It is two separate issues. You could speak to the DMV dealer licensing division about that as well. Understand though if you do they may get uglier about the trade title issue.

 

[DBerwick56]

Regardless of what they told you, the law requires certain documents to transfer ownership of a vehicle when one of the parties is deceased and that burden to provide all required documents is entirely on you. At this point the dealership could sue YOU and easily win. I've worked for auto dealerships for 35 years. Please trust me on this. You will get nowhere with "well they told me wrong..." Sales people are not lawyers or title experts.
Your grandmother does not need a will. She needs to probate your grandfather's estate. Or if she is clearly his only heir based on your state, she may be able to simply provide an affidavit of heirship along with the copy of the will, then she can sign over the title. These rules and procedures vary by state so your state may be a little different. You need to go talk to the DMV and have them tell you exactly what you need, then you need to comply as soon as possible.
On the other hand, the dealership is probably in violation by withholding the plates on your new vehicle. It is two separate issues. You could speak to the DMV dealer licensing division about that as well. Understand though if you do they may get uglier about the trade title issue.

Here me out, even if I wanted to give them the letter I legally have nothing to do with the estate or will or anything like that. Sure, I could ask to become the appointed representative, but that won't work. The dealership is withholding my tags because of it. My hands are tied here. Even if I wanted to help I couldn't. It is this reason I believe I have a case. Do you not think it is one?

 

[txls]

No. I have heard what you are saying is that YOU did not have the legal right to trade that vehicle. If you cannot provide proof that you inherited grandpa's 1/2 ownership of the vehicle, then you cannot legally trade the vehicle in. YOU DO NOT HAVE A CASE. They have a case. At best you can try to give them back the new vehicle and you re-purchase your old vehicle, plus any mileage fees and any damage to the new one, plus any repairs and costs they have incurred with your trade. SO you need to go in there ASAP because the longer you wait, the more it will cost you. Then understand that you will NEVER be able to sell this vehicle without grandma's assistance. I you want to continue believing that you have a case then you better get a lawyer soon because they will be suing you.

 

[DBerwick56]

No. I have heard what you are saying is that YOU did not have the legal right to trade that vehicle. If you cannot provide proof that you inherited grandpa's 1/2 ownership of the vehicle, then you cannot legally trade the vehicle in. YOU DO NOT HAVE A CASE. They have a case. At best you can try to give them back the new vehicle and you re-purchase your old vehicle, plus any mileage fees and any damage to the new one, plus any repairs and costs they have incurred with your trade. SO you need to go in there ASAP because the longer you wait, the more it will cost you. Then understand that you will NEVER be able to sell this vehicle without grandma's assistance. I you want to continue believing that you have a case then you better get a lawyer soon because they will be suing you.

I understand that, but the dealership in turn shouldn't of accepted the trade correct? Or then sell a car they know there's a issue with correct? Are you a lawyer in the automotive field? Just trying to understand better.

 

[txls]

They accepted it in trade "assuming" that you would provide the necessary documents. We all know how dangerous it is to assume. You are correct that they should not have sold the vehicle without title. They will have to buy it back. Their bad decisions do NOT change the facts of what you have done.
I am not a lawyer. I don't think I have any further advice for you. Good luck to you.

 

[army judge]

I understand that, but the dealership in turn shouldn't of accepted the trade correct? Or then sell a car they know there's a issue with correct? Are you a lawyer in the automotive field? Just trying to understand better.

You probably have a lawsuit.
If you do, it'll take two or three years to receive a verdict in your favor.
That's your problem.
Obtaining the required document won't damage your lawsuit.
It will fix your problem immediately, however.
A lawsuit will award you damages, if you prove them up, but that can't happen anytime before the end of 2017, or middle 2018.

Contrary to media misinformation, legal remedies don't happen in minutes by chanting legal magical phrases, or receiving justice in a couple of days via a court verdict.