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formal hearing procedures

Discussion in 'Speeding Tickets, Traffic & Moving Violations' started by endy, Feb 22, 2013.

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  1. endy

    endy Law Topic Starter New Member

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    Hi,


    I'm trying to fight a traffic ticket in my first formal hearing myself. I requested a formal hearing, and have not entered a plea. I'm awaiting my court date. I have a few questions. Can you actually file for discovery of evidence (officers notes) etc. before a formal hearing? I'm having a hard time researching and understanding the answer. If not can I enter in evidence at the actual hearing? I'm confused at the actual procedure of doing this, and the procedure of a fomal hearing. Any help would be apprectiated.
     
  2. endy

    endy Law Topic Starter New Member

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    For anyone that is asking the same question, this is what I needed....

    What you want are the Michigan rules of Civil Procedure, the Michigan Rules of Evidence (if that exists) and the Michigan statute that incorporates the UCC (if that exists).

    Good luck, sounds like it would be fun to watch.
     
  3. army judge

    army judge Super Moderator

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    Michigan requires a TCO (traffic control order) to be required for speed limits, stop signs, yield signs, traffic lights, etc... Some governmental bodies are lazy and don't have them. Normally these TCOs are maintained by the local pd or sheriff. They are required to present them upon request. No TCO, no traffic violation. Hint, hint, hint...


    Sent from my iPad3 using Tapatalk HD
     
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  4. endy

    endy Law Topic Starter New Member

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    I'm kind of confused... I've read a lot on michigan law and have never heard of a traffic control order. Can you explain a bit further? I would just call the police station and request the TCO?
     
  5. endy

    endy Law Topic Starter New Member

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    also, it was for running a yellow/red light. It turned red when I was in the intersection. So I would I'm assuming just ask for this in person? Or would it help to have an affidavit with me. Could I get it in writing that they do not have it somehow?
     
  6. endy

    endy Law Topic Starter New Member

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    I called both, who at the station should know about them? I asked a clerk/administrator and they had no idea what I was talking about. She transferred me to the chief of police. Should I just go there and request it? How would I go about noting officially that they do not have it?
     
  7. Betty3

    Betty3 Super Moderator

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    Per some info I have the county road commission & the local police station should have copies. Maybe they should have copies but don't. Note army judge's post above (post #3) re no TCO, no violation. You are suppose to be able to go & pick up a copy.
     
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  8. endy

    endy Law Topic Starter New Member

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    Betty, how would I prove that they do not have it if they don't in a formal hearing?
     
  9. Betty3

    Betty3 Super Moderator

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    I would just say you went to pick up copies & where you all went but they said they didn't have copies. That is the only thing I can think of. Maybe someone else will have some other suggestions(s).
     
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  10. army judge

    army judge Super Moderator

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    It depends on which agency cited you, local PD, township PD, Sheriff, or State Police.

    If it was local PD, you can request to review them at police HQ.

    The Sheriff is a bit different, as would a Township PD.

    Just go to their respective HQs, and ask.

    You appear, ask to review the Traffic Control Orders.

    If they appear NOT to know that of which you speak, you might want to thank them, and leave hastily.

    Because, you can inquire of the TCO at trial.

    In the meantime, Google (Traffic Control Orders Michigan Law).





    http://www.lawserver.com/law/state/michigan/mi-laws/michigan_laws_257-71

    http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,4643,7-123-1586_27094-73839--,00.html

    http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,4643,7-123-1593_30536_25802-16169--,00.html






    I gave you a hint, now pursue it.

    But, if I were you, I'd simply take traffic school.

    It always works.

    Traffic courts aren't concerned with justice, they are simply revenue arms for government, and your state is very hungry these days.


     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2013
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  11. endy

    endy Law Topic Starter New Member

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    Army judge, I've researched everything from questioning their jurisdiction, to this. I am completely aware that they consider me a corporation, the banking system, the fraud that's gone on in our country etc. Anyways, I decided not to go that route yet. Thanks for all of the help. It's been invalueable. I'll update the thread when need be. I'll tape the conversation I have with whoever I go and request those from.
     
  12. endy

    endy Law Topic Starter New Member

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    Upon research... I found

    STATE OF MICHIGAN v.
    CRAIG HORTON No. 304803, Court of Appeals of Michigan, August 14, 2012

    The issue is this is a traffic sign and not a light. Need to research more, but someone on another forum brought it to my attention.
     
  13. endy

    endy Law Topic Starter New Member

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    doesn't look good. As I read it, it would also apply to traffic lights. If the prosecutor doesn't appeal the decision then he doesn't... I guess we'll see how sharp he is.
     
  14. Betty3

    Betty3 Super Moderator

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    I guess it might or might not work - good luck to you.
     
  15. endy

    endy Law Topic Starter New Member

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    I do have one question in specific... My ticket was printed electronically... This is newer so I'm not sure this constitutes as anything. The officer checked the box that he was under oath... see the following...


    Rule 8.125 Electronic Filing of Citation

    (A) Applicability. This rule applies to all civil infraction and misdemeanor actions
    initiated by a Michigan Uniform Law Citation or a Michigan Uniform Municipal Civil
    Infraction Citation.
    (B) Citation; Complaint; Filing. A citation may be filed with the court either on
    paper or electronically. The filing of a citation constitutes the filing of a complaint.
    An electronic citation must contain all the information that would be required if the
    citation were filed on paper. A citation that contains the full name of the police
    officer or authorized local official who issued it will be deemed to have been signed
    pursuant to MCL 257.727c(3), 600.8705(3), or 600.8805(3).
    (C) Contested Actions. If an electronic citation is contested, the court may decline
    to hear the matter until the citation is signed and filed on paper. A citation that is
    not signed and filed on paper, when required by the court, will be dismissed with
    prejudice.
    The part of this I don't understand is below...


    600.8805 Citation; numbering; parts; modification; complaint treated as under oath.


    Sec. 8805.

    (1) Each citation shall be numbered consecutively, be in a form as approved by the state court administrator, and consist of the following parts:

    (a) The original, which is a complaint and notice to appear by the law enforcement officer and shall be filed with the court in which the appearance is to be made.

    (b) The first copy, which shall be retained by the law enforcement agency.

    (c) The second copy, which shall be issued to the alleged violator if the violation is a misdemeanor.

    (d) The third copy, which shall be issued to the alleged violator if the violation is a state civil infraction.

    (2) With the prior approval of the state court administrator, the citation may be modified as to content or number of copies to accommodate law enforcement and local court procedures and practices. Use of this citation for violations other than state civil infractions is optional.

    (3) A complaint for a state civil infraction signed by a law enforcement officer shall be treated as made under oath if the complaint contains the following statement immediately above the date and signature of the officer: “I declare under the penalties of perjury that the statements above are true to the best of my information, knowledge, and belief.”.


    My question is, I know the signature can just be a mark on the ticket. It was filed electronically, and signed electronically... It just printed the officers name... how the hell does a print out of an officers name on the ticket count as a signature?
     
  16. Betty3

    Betty3 Super Moderator

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    endy, I don't know what to tell you except that they are legal. And as per above "An electronic citation must contain all the information that would be required if the
    citation were filed on paper. A citation that contains the full name of the police
    officer or authorized local official who issued it will be deemed to have been signed
    pursuant to MCL 257.727c(3), 600.8705(3), or 600.8805(3)."
     
  17. endy

    endy Law Topic Starter New Member

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    What I don't get is if he is required to have his full name then why wouldn't he sign his first initial, or why would he not have to?
     
  18. endy

    endy Law Topic Starter New Member

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    Do either of you know of anyone that has ever challenged the jurisdiction of the court? I've read of a few cases and only seen one for a fact where someone motioned to dismiss... did not plea, reserved his rights properly and the court didn't file a motion in years... they just left it. It makes since, but I would need to get going on the motions now.

    I have another question as well... I have a court date, they said I could request another one once. I'm going on vacation in april. If they schedule it during vacation could I just motion for a continuance?
     
  19. cbg

    cbg Super Moderator

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  20. endy

    endy Law Topic Starter New Member

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    I am not trying to argue UCC codes or anything like that... I am trying to see if there is any validity to the argument that the traffic court is merely an administrative court, and is basically having me consent to a contract by pleading.

    If i wanted to link the two posts I would have done so myself CBG.
     

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