Arrest, Search, Seizure, Warrant CA Penal Code 1554.2 - Definition of "approximate time"

[SafelyAnonymous]

Hello,

In California Penal Code 1554.2, regarding the issuance of arrest warrants, I am a bit confused about some of the wording and have not been able to find a satisfactory explanation or definition anywhere online.

The code states that when applying for an arrest warrant, the DA needs to state "the approximate time" a crime took place.

Does anyone know what "approximate" means in this regard? A particular month? Year? Decade? How far out from a particular date is "approximate" before it's no longer considered approximate?

Thank you for your time.

 

[disagreeable]

Feel free to read related case law.

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=california++code++approximate+time&btnG=&hl=en&as_sdt=4,5

 

[SafelyAnonymous]

Thanks, but...

Disagreeable, while I truly appreciate your time in responding to my question, I can assure that I have spent over 12 hours searching online (with uncountable search constructs) and would never take up some else's valuable time with a question I could find the answer to myself.

 

[mightymoose]

You are over thinking it. The term means exactly what it says. It is simply an estimation although more often than not it can be narrowed down to within a few hours if not specified exactly. It can also be a span of a few weeks or even months depending upon the situation. It does not really matter so long as the probable cause for the arrest is found valid and the statute if limitations has not expired the warrant will likely issue.

 

[SafelyAnonymous]

Thank you, mightymoose. I definitely understand what you're saying. The reason it may to be relevant to the probable cause is that the person in question has not physically been in California (verifiable with irrefutable evidence) for numerous years. The person in California who has alleged he committed the crime has stated in a police report that the crime happened during 2003 or 2004, with no statements that would help investigators narrow that down. So essentially, I was at least partially surprised that a warrant could be issued with such a loose timeframe and no supporting evidence of any kind.

 

[army judge]

Thank you, mightymoose. I definitely understand what you're saying. The reason it may to be relevant to the probable cause is that the person in question has not physically been in California (verifiable with irrefutable evidence) for numerous years. The person in California who has alleged he committed the crime has stated in a police report that the crime happened during 2003 or 2004, with no statements that would help investigators narrow that down. So essentially, I was at least partially surprised that a warrant could be issued with such a loose timeframe and no supporting evidence of any kind.

If a person had been outside of the state of CA for a decade, most warrants would not issue.
Why?
The SOL (with a few exceptions).
But, as Moose said, don't over think it.
In your example, if you were in London, UK on January 30, 2004 and were alleged to have committed murder, you have an affirmative defense that you could lay out at trial or a probable cause hearing.

That would not preclude a grand jury from indicting you, however.

You are best advised NOT to tip your hand until at trial or the PC hearing.

Why again?

The DA isn't likely to believe you, unless you are person of prominence.
Us mere mortals assert our defenses at the PC or at trial by way of a defense.

Trust me, those are rare Perry Mason or true Ben Matlock moments.

 

[SafelyAnonymous]

army judge, thank you for your response. I appreciate the perspective and the advice. Unfortunately, it is something that has a much longer SOL.

The reason everyone involved in the issue are so gung ho to get this resolved as rapidly as possible is the very poor health of the accused gentleman. He would be an extremely easy target in a California jail.

You are so very right about the lack of true Perry Mason moments. I've only seen one in my life and I will never forget it.

Thank you again.

 

[army judge]

army judge, thank you for your response. I appreciate the perspective and the advice. Unfortunately, it is something that has a much longer SOL.

The reason everyone involved in the issue are so gung ho to get this resolved as rapidly as possible is the very poor health of the accused gentleman. He would be an extremely easy target in a California jail.

You are so very right about the lack of true Perry Mason moments. I've only seen one in my life and I will never forget it.

Thank you again.

Okay, please tell us the alleged charge.
When was this alleged activity supposed to have taken place?
If the alleged perp is an older person, that would mean many witnesses are, too.
Is there a complaintant?
On what continent is the alleged perp residing?
This has piqued my curiosity.
I could be willing to offer some guidance and tips.
You see, I enjoy instigating those Perry Mason moments. LOL

 

[SafelyAnonymous]

Thanks very much, army judge. I'll try to be as succinct as possible, although it surely is difficult being that I'm emotionally involved.

A male in-law is going through a very acrimonious divorce in California. The woman he is divorcing has vowed (online, via Facebook, no less) to take revenge on him and his entire family. She is coercing her children into making false accusations of a sexual nature against various people. There have been 4 accusations against 3 people so far, two of which have already been categorized as unfounded. In one of these instances, the child admitted, in no ambiguous terms, that his mother had forced him to make his accusation and told him exactly what to say.

This is where I enter into it. My husband is related to the (soon to be ex) husband of this woman. We personally have not lived in their state for 30 years (we are in a state adjacent to California, many hundreds of miles away) and have only visited there a total of 8 days in the last 13 years.

The person (who is under the age of 18) making the accusation has given statements to counselors and was videotaped telling the police that an event happened between her and my husband sometime during 2003 or 2004 This was as specific as she could get on timing. We were not in the state from 2001 until 2007 and can absolutely prove that. Additionally, neither of us has ever been alone with this child. In fact, we barely know her or her siblings.

We have been aware of the accusation for many months and were advised by an attorney to not speak with an investigator who telephoned us from there to "talk about this situation."

Anyway, a warrant was issued out of California and he was arrested here, last week.

I am presuming that since these types of things are taken quite seriously, coupled with the fact that we would not speak with the investigator, that it is their standard procedure to take the accuser at face value and apply for a warrant.

As Murphy's Law would dictate, our attorney is out of town on vacation, thus my seeking advice on here.

I'm very irritated that they can get an arrest warrant for an accusation based on such a vague timeframe. They obviously have no proof we were in CA (because we weren't), so they have nothing but the statement that was made. While I am all for "protecting children", it frustrates me that being under 18 gives someone more power over others. My point being, if I said that someone in another state came here and touched me in an inappropriate way, there is no way the state would issue an arrest warrant based on that as I'm not a child.

Anyway, I'm off topic - sorry about that. I'm sure you've heard similar stories time and again and were hoping for something more unique for a potential Mason moment. lol

Thank you again for your time.

 

[CdwJava]

Clearly, the police and the prosecutor provided sufficient probable cause to a judge who issued the warrant for the arrest. What that means is that a prosecutor provided sufficient information to a judge to convince the judge that a crime was committed and that the defendant likely committed the crime.

You may never know what the specific allegations are as you are not a party to the allegations. The defendant's attorney can get the relevant information and make a determination as to whether or not it will be appropriate to fight extradition (usually little more than a delaying tactic), to challenge the warrant in some (not likely from out of state), or to hire an attorney in CA to address the issue there.

Ultimately, he will almost certainly have to be returned to CA to face arraignment and booking.

 

[SafelyAnonymous]

Thanks for the perspective, CdwJava. I certainly do understand what you are saying, completely. However, it does just irritate me that anyone under the age of 18 can point their finger at anyone else and do so much damage. As far as probable cause goes, a child making a statement seems to be sufficient probable cause for most jurisdictions. It's almost as bad as that old saying about how a grand jury would vote to indict a ham sandwich.

Very fortunately, I will definitely know by the end of the week what the specifics are as our attorney will be back from in the office in two days and calling for the details is on the top of his list. Since my spouse is disabled and I'm his caregiver, I am privy to everything that goes on, legally or medically.

Thank you again for your time.

 

[CdwJava]

Thanks for the perspective, CdwJava. I certainly do understand what you are saying, completely. However, it does just irritate me that anyone under the age of 18 can point their finger at anyone else and do so much damage.

They can't. And, in all honesty, YOU have no idea WHAT the accusation is or by who. Unless the defendant's attorney has provided this to you for some bizarre reasoning, you are not a party to any of this and I doubt that anyone would give anything more than the code section and nature of the offense indicated on the arrest warrant. You can make all sort of assumptions, but that's all they are - assumptions (i.e. guesses).

As far as probable cause goes, a child making a statement seems to be sufficient probable cause for most jurisdictions. It's almost as bad as that old saying about how a grand jury would vote to indict a ham sandwich.

You may think so, but that's simply not true. If it were, we'd be able to bring charges in a whole lot more molestation cases.

And, as a note, in CA we rarely use the Grand Jury for indictments. The DA has to believe there is sufficient probable cause to proceed, and he or she has to then convince a JUDGE that there is sufficient probable cause to believe the suspect committed the offense. That is a tad more than a minor saying, "He molested me ..."

Ultimately, as you have been told, the place to challenge this will be in a CA courtroom. When he appears for a preliminary hearing, he can challenge the strength of the case. Before that, his attorney can raise whatever motions he or she feels is appropriate. But, while out of state, there will be little that can be done.

Very fortunately, I will definitely know by the end of the week what the specifics are as our attorney will be back from in the office in two days and calling for the details is on the top of his list. Since my spouse is disabled and I'm his caregiver, I am privy to everything that goes on, legally or medically.

A caregiver is not the same as having the right to access any and all legal info. Unless the court has granted you such a power of attorney, HIS attorney is not likely to speak with you unless he authorizes it ... and since his attorney appears to still be out of state, then no one has the potential to obtain any detailed info on the affidavit for the warrant. Sorry, but even the law enforcement agencies in your state would not have any idea what the allegations were in support of the warrant.

 

[SafelyAnonymous]

Hi CdwJava,

My only point is that they can't have anything else other than the child's statement simply because we were not physically in the state and the accusation could not have happened - at least not in any way that involved either of us. While I am aware that many people claim innocence who most certainly are not, we have rock solid evidence of our whereabouts. Perhaps the mentally disturbed mother of the child has also added her two cents worth in some capacity, which would lend more credence to an accusation. As you say, I currently have no way of knowing. But the bottom line is that there could be no physical evidence nor could there be any supporting evidence beyond a statement from the mother, perhaps.

I also probably shouldn't have mentioned a grand jury, but I was simply using it as an example. Perhaps California is very different, but in this state many things occur so easily (probable cause, grand jury indictments, searches & seizures without warrant, etc.) that the state is nearly bankrupt from the incarceration expenses and lawsuits. I've spent many hours listening to horror stories from our attorney and his colleagues. Much goes on here that would never fly in other places.

Thank you again for your perspective.

 

[CdwJava]

Hi CdwJava,

My only point is that they can't have anything else other than the child's statement simply because we were not physically in the state and the accusation could not have happened - at least not in any way that involved either of us.

Unless it is alleged to have happened when the suspect was in the state. Again, you can't possibly know the details of the accusation(s) based solely on the arrest warrant.

I also probably shouldn't have mentioned a grand jury, but I was simply using it as an example. Perhaps California is very different,

Yep. The Grand Jury in CA is very rarely used for criminal, indictments.

but in this state many things occur so easily (probable cause, grand jury indictments, searches & seizures without warrant, etc.) that the state is nearly bankrupt from the incarceration expenses and lawsuits. I've spent many hours listening to horror stories from our attorney and his colleagues. Much goes on here that would never fly in other places.

Thank you again for your perspective.[/QUOTE]

 

[army judge]

Hi CdwJava,

My only point is that they can't have anything else other than the child's statement simply because we were not physically in the state and the accusation could not have happened - at least not in any way that involved either of us. While I am aware that many people claim innocence who most certainly are not, we have rock solid evidence of our whereabouts. Perhaps the mentally disturbed mother of the child has also added her two cents worth in some capacity, which would lend more credence to an accusation. As you say, I currently have no way of knowing. But the bottom line is that there could be no physical evidence nor could there be any supporting evidence beyond a statement from the mother, perhaps.

I also probably shouldn't have mentioned a grand jury, but I was simply using it as an example. Perhaps California is very different, but in this state many things occur so easily (probable cause, grand jury indictments, searches & seizures without warrant, etc.) that the state is nearly bankrupt from the incarceration expenses and lawsuits. I've spent many hours listening to horror stories from our attorney and his colleagues. Much goes on here that would never fly in other places.

Thank you again for your perspective.

There seems to be a disconnect. Your story sounds, to me, 100% reliable. Add to the way you are adamant as to your whereabouts, therein lies YOUR Perry Mason and Ben Matlock moments!!!!

You're faced, well hubby is, with the bane of many innocent criminal defendants. You must be silent, patient, and wait.

Your remedy lies in a CA court room during a preliminary hearing, or later at trial. You can additionally take some solace in the lack of DNA all these many years later. Add to that that unless someone appears to lie in a vain effort to support the alleged victim, you're sitting on the high and low jokers. The high joker is that you can PROVE you and hubby were NOT inside the state boundaries of CA. The low joker is that YOU can swear that you were with hubby, supporting the PROOF you'll provide to indicate your presence consistently OUTSIDE of California's state borders!

I'm sensing M&Ms. That certainly sounds like a Mason and Matlock moment.

 

[SafelyAnonymous]

All I can really say is that I have a pretty good idea on this because an investigating detective attempted to utilize a 3-way pretext call (which we did not complete or give any information during) and a basic outline of the accusation was laid at our feet. Granted, I do know that authorities are legally allowed to not be completely honest during such things.

I am very pleased to hear that CA does not utilize the GJ system much in criminal indictments. Here, you will be scheduled to see a judge and then they will change their minds and use the GJ. Most things here are done that way it seems.

Thanks again

 

[SafelyAnonymous]

Thanks x2 for the chuckle, army judge. I'm sure you know how rare a smile is for me at this time.

One additional thing we have is a landlord who never leaves the property for more than a few minutes. He is 75 feet away and is very, very aware of our whereabouts. For all I know, he may even know if one of us has intestinal gas!

Oh and from what we have been told, and just as a head's up - the accuser is not claiming sex or any type of penetration - only exterior clothing touch.

The hard part in all of this is my husband's health. Already, the local facility he is in has tried to make 5 changes to his different medications, with quite detrimental effects. They feel their part time nurse knows far more than our doctor of 10 years. Just imagine having diabetes, advanced rheumatoid arthritis, asthma and a hiatal hernia and having someone mess with your precariously stacked medication regime. Point blank, they do not want to spend the $3000-$4000/month that his medications cost and they will not allow me to bring them in. Anyway, my point is that I am terrified for his physical well being. We have had quite a few incarcerated individuals perish in the jails here. I don't know about other states, but here they get bologna sandwiches for breakfast, if that tells you anything.

I do agree with you about holding the jokers and I'm quite confident of the outcome of a trial. So, thanks much for your thoughts on that. It's the time he spends incarcerated until that would occur that has me rattled. Additionally, extraditing him surely (for us) brings a whole new meaning to the term "financially bereft". I literally do not know what I will do, financially.

Thanks again!

 

[army judge]

Thanks x2 for the chuckle, army judge. I'm sure you know how rare a smile is for me at this time.

One additional thing we have is a landlord who never leaves the property for more than a few minutes. He is 75 feet away and is very, very aware of our whereabouts. For all I know, he may even know if one of us has intestinal gas!

Oh and from what we have been told, and just as a head's up - the accuser is not claiming sex or any type of penetration - only exterior clothing touch.

The hard part in all of this is my husband's health. Already, the local facility he is in has tried to make 5 changes to his different medications, with quite detrimental effects. They feel their part time nurse knows far more than our doctor of 10 years. Just imagine having diabetes, advanced rheumatoid arthritis, asthma and a hiatal hernia and having someone mess with your precariously stacked medication regime. Point blank, they do not want to spend the $3000-$4000/month that his medications cost and they will not allow me to bring them in. Anyway, my point is that I am terrified for his physical well being. We have had quite a few incarcerated individuals perish in the jails here. I don't know about other states, but here they get bologna sandwiches for breakfast, if that tells you anything.

I do agree with you about holding the jokers and I'm quite confident of the outcome of a trial. So, thanks much for your thoughts on that. It's the time he spends incarcerated until that would occur that has me rattled. Additionally, extraditing him surely (for us) brings a whole new meaning to the term "financially bereft". I literally do not know what I will do, financially.

Thanks again!

Horses and their cousins, jackasses, are quite adept at pulling the wagon.
They are very poor wagon pushers! LOL
Don't put the cart in front of the jack ass or the horse.
I suspect that if hubby is arrested, due to his medical condition he'll be released on his own recognizance.
Jails don't want to bear the burden of medical costs and the responsibility that goes with said care.
In fact, it might be wise to discuss this with his physician and see what he or she says about hubby being able to travel, exist in confinement, etc...
Due to hubby's health and dietary needs, I suspect special arrangements could be made.
In fact, I've seen the legal process grind to halt for years, allowing the defendant to recover or peacefully expire.
If he is arrested, he simply announces he wishes to remain silent and speak only to his lawyer!
As I said, I'd be very surprised if this farce continued, if only because CA is broke.
Stay the course, madam, steady as she goes; stay the course!

 

[SafelyAnonymous]

Thanks so much for the encouragement and very sound advice. Reading your post definitely cheered me up and your idea about speaking to his physicians (he actually has 3 total) is something that did not occur to me. So I am quite indebted to you, Sir!

No worries, both of us know very well to remain silent and let our lawyer do the talking. He's a brilliant speaker, which surely doesn't hurt, either!

I definitely have maintained hopes of some of the things you mentioned possibly happening because of the state of the finances in California. Not to mention the government directive to downsize their prisoner population. In fact, I did find out that the authorities here have stated he would have to be transported individually (not on their standard "train" transport, as they call it) and that CA will need at least one trained medical person to be on the trip. Transport alone is going to set them back a pretty penny.

If you are interested, later on when things play out however they will, I will let you know when/how the Mason moment occurs. ;-)

Thank you again, most sincerely.

 

[army judge]

Hi, SA: You're more than welcome. I'd be very interested in hearing how this all plays out, so please stop by anytime and let us know how things are progressing. I'm going to believe all will end well, and the nightmare will have ended by Halloween.