Criminal Law Solicitaion crime

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alex8111

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I have a question – I was recently arrested for Solicitation of Prostitution and released that same night. It was a stupid, ignorant mistake on my part. The women was an undercover cop and I simply got arrested and released. I haven't gone to court yet and not yet convicted.

I do currently have a open INS case for green card – Will this ruin everything for me or do I still have a chance to get my green card for being arrested for this crime. I have been in the US for over 10 years but due to some unfortunate circumstances, my application has been delayed for many years and now that it has finally reopened, I get arrested. How serious of a situation am in? What should I do? Is there any chance that I wont be convicted? If convicted, it would be a Misdemeanor and my first arrest ever.

What can I do?
 
The bad news is: this is considered to be a crime of moral turpitude. Conviction of a crime of moral turpitude can make you deportable or inadmissible so you need to be very careful in your next steps.

Since you say that the crime is only a misdemeanor (if it is not even only an infraction) it should have a maximum penalty of 1 year in jail. In that case you would probably qualify for an exception under the strict rules if your record otherwise is clean. In other words: it probably would not lead to a refusal of the green card.

However, the better way is to attempt to have a disposition of the case that will not count as a conviction under immigration law. Often in these minor cases it is possible to get charges dismissed or reduced to infractions etc. Therefore I would advise you to seek representation by a criminal defense lawyer who is experienced in immigration issues (not all are, so ask!) so that he might be able to find such a way.
 
If I get the charges dismissed or reduced, will it be easier to get the greed card rather than be convicted of the misdemeanor? Also, will it make any difference to reword the crime so it wont be "Solicitation of Prostitution", but just "solicitation"...Will this make any difference with the INS if the prosecutor agrees to word it differently?

Also, if charges are dismissed, do I even have to mention it to the INS? Why should it even matter? Everyone can get arrested, but if not convicted, how can someone be still labeled as a "criminal"?
 
Well, there are some little differences that matter a lot. Not every "dismissal" is the same. If chrges were clearly wrong and were dismissed because of lack of probable cause, it is very different to a dismissal where it is clear that the defendant did the crime but is getting let off easily in exchange for paying a fine or doing some hours of community work. Immigration law however counts the latter form of dismissal as a conviction, which makes sense, because immigration law is concerned with keeping people who have no respect for our laws out of our country.

Therefore, it depends on what your form says or what the interviewer in an INS office asks: Usually they do not ask simply if you have been convicted, they ask if you have been arrested, charged or otherwise been subject to criminal prosecution and then they will evaluate the answer. The worst thing you can do is lie and simply say no. They will find out and then you can kiss your green card good bye.

Like I said before, if your record is otherwise clean and the crime fits the description of the exception, it probably will not make any difference if you will be convicted or the charges will be dismissed. Anyway, you don't want to start life in the US with a criminal record, that is why you always should try to get charges dismissed. Discuss this with an experienced immigration attorney. Often the wording makes a huge difference, because if another crime is charged it might not be of moral turpitude and that makes a difference. For example: Instead of solicitation for prosecution being charged with disorderly conduct.
 
alex8111

Im not just barely starting my life in this country now – I have been here since 1991 and grew up here, but, do to some very unfortunately circumstances, my INS has been delayed for so long. I have been record free for all that time, and now a simple BS crime can ruin everything for me – If there ever was an exception, this is really it.

My lawyer for this misdemeanor case suggested that its best to get charged with a different crime rather than "Solicitation of Prostitution" – He also thinks that this is a petty crime, but I'm sure the INS does not care about these things.

Do they actually care if the person really is a person of good morals and that the arrest happened out of bad circumstances regardless of conviction or not? Does what I say to them matter?

Also, what is this "moral turpitude" – how do they decide what is considered moral or not? Do they follow certain charts? Rules? Or something to determine this? Morality is surely an issue that can easily be debated – Not that this is what im after, but, am very curious to how they work.
 
You are right, the concept of "moral turpitude" is somewhat amorphous. The statute does not define it, therefore the courts have defined it. But the circumstances of the individual case don't count nowadays. There is a certain list drawn up by looking at decisions of the courts in the last whatever many years and there you can find: "solicitation of a prostitute = crime of moral turpitude." Unless a high court some day says it is no longer, this crime will always be treated as such. So your lawyer is right, it is best to try to get charged with a crime that is not one of "moral turpitude" instead of this crime.
 
So does the INS ultimately care about the reson for my arrest or what I got charged with?

If the latter, then I could get by this one if the court agrees to something like disturbance of peace or maybe something that could be related to solicitation. Is that right?
 
They don't care about the circumstances, but they do care about the charge. If the charge is for a crime of moral turpitude, they will not care about your humanitarian impulse that you only wanted to do some good to the poor prostitute or whatever.

But if your are not charged with a crime of moral turpitude but instead with another, that will make a huge difference.

So, the INS is not the people to argue with but the prosecutor. There you will want to find a deal.
 
alex8111

So does that ever happen? I mean is it a possibilty to be charged with a different crime if you were arrested for something else?
 
Well, the crimes have to be related somehow. You cannot commit a murder and be convicted of burglary for it, for example. Usually what happens is that people make a deal and get convicted for a "lesser included" crime, like murder in the second degree instead of murder in the first degree.

But sometimes there are crimes are similar in criminal law but quite different in immigration law. In the case of siliciting a prostitute I would try to get a charge for disorderly conduct or loitering instead.

But, it all depends on the local definitions of crimes and the willingness of the prosecution to deal, so you need to discuss this with your attorney. You cannot rely on advice on this forum only, this is too detailed a problem.
 
Yes I agree with you, my lawyer is on top of it, but, lawyers are not perfect people, therefore, I like to do my own research and educate myself as well so that I could suggest my findings to my laywer.

So disorderly conduct or loitering instead are not crimes of "moral turpitude" right? So if I get charged with any of those two, I should be ok with the INS I suppose.

Just out of curiosity, has the immigration always been this unnecessarily and immorally strict or has this come about because of 9/11? I just cant imagine people 20 years ago having this much difficulty getting a greencard.
 
On the contrary, the provisions about "immoral character" actually date back to the first immigration laws. Regulations passed after 9/11 concern themselves with security. If you find regulations concerned with "morality" they usually are pretty old.

There also is nothing unusual about it. Every country in the world has restrictions on immigration and they all would not want to admit people who do not observe their laws. There is an old saying which is pretty true: if you are in Rome, do as the Romans do.
 
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I prefer this old proverb.

If you are prepard to do a crime, you must be prepared to do the time!


Sorry, lex could not help myself there.
 
alex8111

Some crimes should not be crimes...

Some cops should not be cops...

and some laws definately waste your tax dollars...
 
Think yourself lucky you are in a democracy and not a dictatorship, you would have been in for the chop!
Now that dos'e not bare thinking about?
 
alex8111

I am grateful that I am in America, but, that doesn't mean America is perfect. I mean, just look at how ridiculous this crime is. I am arrested for supposedly picking up an consenting adult. And now this government is questioning my morality – How dare they.

Can you tell me exactly what is so immoral with having sex with an consenting adult and paying her for it because she was amazing in bed – It is my money. I should have the right to give my money to whomever I want. I worked for it. And to call me an immoral person (not to mention criminal) is simply ludicrous – Last I remembered, Nevada is in this country. Nevada in infamous for having legalized prostitution and the federal government is now questioning my morality – That is just pathetic (and contradicting) given that prostitution is legal in some states. Why not make porno illegal too. I mean, those girls get paid to have sex – What's the difference?

The reason there are so many porosities walking your neighborhoods is simply because it is illegal. If it was legal, people would be doing it in the privacy of their own home without worrying about lame ass cops who pretends she is a whore simply to glorify "daddy" issues she had growing up (yes, im talking about that female cop who has nothing better to do then to get a kick out of knowing guys want her, but then arrests them because she has man issues). How dare a government tell people they cant have consenting sex (between two adults) for whatever reason. How dare the government tell people how they can or cant spend their own hard earned money.

This is a great country, but, it definitely has stupid laws as well as good ones…This one is definitely a very stupid one and you know it…

You know, it's not so much that it's illegal that upsets me, but, the fact that my morality is in question. There is nothing immoral about it. There are rapists, murderers, child molesters out there and im arrested because cops have nothing better to do. Your tax dollars are going to waste. This should not be a crime. There is no victim. The only victims in prostitution are the people who live in those neiborhoods because pimps and whores are walking their streets. But that's the government's fault. If it was legal, people would be doing it in private in fact, they would be paying taxes for it. Gee, who would of thought, sex in the privacy of their own home.

Sorry, if I sound like im attacking you, I'm not. In fact, I greatly appreciate all the wonderful advice you have given me.
 
This is not Legal Advice!

I know you feel very strong about this subject, you are intitled to your veiws.
To say the law is wrong is your opinion, but in many cases the populas feel that "sex" should be two consenting adults that have the bond of love and freindship and
the commitment of marrage and not go around like dog's on heat.

As for the legality of prostitution, I have seen first hand what a legal system is like "It is scary". Holland is very laps in these laws and although it may seem ok on the outside there is a much bigger problem underneath. Prositution in Holland "Amsterdam" is run by the criminal underworld, underage girls and boys being sold for sex, drugs are rife and people are jacking up in the streets. You are more than likley to be mugg there than anywhere else in the world and it is only about 2 miles square. They have brown bars where drugs are sold as legal as you like. But where dose it all stop? I for one do not like the thought that I can't go out feeling safe and do no want to see women and young boys on offer for sexual pleasure and being pushed to buy drugs, every 50 feet i walk.
Also, we have forgot to mention AIDS and STD's the innosent people that are contracting these illness, through dirty needels and unsafe sex. A bigger killer than any world war!

As for the undercover officer, she is out there just doing a job. That is what she gets payed to do, you are in an area where solicitation is illegal.
If you realy do not like the laws, you should not live where you live.

I feel that NYClex, whom advised you on you issue was right to say "When in rome do as the romans do" It just means if you have be lucky enough to reside in a country that has welcomed you in, at least have the commen respect to obide by there laws. "whether you agree with them or not" I think chopping someones hand off is a bit harsh for shoplifting, but in some country's that is there law.

Like I said before "if you are prepared to commit a crime, you have to be prepared to do the time" I know you feel this is a harsh lesson to learn, but I feel you will only learn through expireance. As for Rapist, and Kiddy fidlers I feel castration is the correct proceeder, but I am sure many other people disagree. Like I said we are all intitled to an opinion.

good luck and fingers crossed the judge may be in a nice forgiving mood.
 
alex8111

Now you are comparing sex between two consenting adults with child prostitution – There is a huge difference between an adult making a consensual choice versus a child being sold for sex against his or her will…Why are you even bringing this into it. Anyone who even thinks about sex with a child needs to die.

And I never said other countries aren't harsh. But I just feel like sex between two adults whether for money or not, is my right as a human being and should not be violated by the law. It is my humanitarian right. Im sure there are countries that would kill you for having a prostitute – So what. That country is just as messed up and im glad im not there…But America is supposedly the leader and an example for the rest of the world. I truely feel like my human rights have been taken from me for trying to pick up a hot woman. Thats just wrong.

Some rights are given to you by god for being a human – Having sex with an consenting adult is one of them.

And i am not living 2000 years ago. Im lining in 2005 in the free world. Not Romans. I dont care what their rules and laws are. I care about human rights.
 
alex8111

Now you are comparing sex between two consenting adults with child prostitution – There is a huge difference between an adult making a consensual choice versus a child being sold for sex against his or her will…Why are you even bringing this into it. Anyone who even thinks about sex with a child needs to die.

And I never said other countries aren't harsh. But I just feel like sex between two adults whether for money or not, is my right as a human being and should not be violated by the law. It is my humanitarian right. Im sure there are countries that would kill you for having a prostitute – So what. That country is just as messed up and im glad im not there…But America is supposedly the leader and an example for the rest of the world. I truely feel like my human rights have been taken from me for trying to pick up a hot woman. Thats just wrong.

Some rights are given to you by god for being a human – Having sex with an consenting adult is one of them.

And i am not living 2000 years ago. Im lining in 2005 in the free world. Not Romans. I dont care what their rules and laws are. I care about human rights.

Also, It is silly to limit my sex to "bond of love and friendship" – What if I want to have sex with a woman I hate. I cant? I should be arrested for it? Gees, talk about violation of my god given right as a human being and simply pointless views on life. Last I checked, I'm a mammal just like dog's in heat.
 
Im not just barely starting my life in this country now – I have been here since 1991 and grew up here, but, do to some very unfortunately circumstances, my INS has been delayed for so long. I have been record free for all that time, and now a simple BS crime can ruin everything for me – If there ever was an exception, this is really it.

My lawyer for this misdemeanor case suggested that its best to get charged with a different crime rather than "Solicitation of Prostitution" – He also thinks that this is a petty crime, but I'm sure the INS does not care about these things.

Do they actually care if the person really is a person of good morals and that the arrest happened out of bad circumstances regardless of conviction or not? Does what I say to them matter?


Like I said let's hope the judge in a forgiving mood!
 
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