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PayPal commmitting fraud to proct it's own ass

Discussion in 'Business & Corporate Matters' started by heyimstuart, Feb 11, 2019.

  1. heyimstuart

    heyimstuart Law Topic Starter New Member

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    Sold a jacket for $450 on eBay (said no returns), buyer buys it and said it's the correct size I listed it as, which is way too big for him but he bought it to alter it to fit him, except his tailor butchered it and "sleeves look like a T-shirt on me and the lining is ripped out". So eBay closed out the dispute and says altering/damaging an item voids his right to return.

    He then opens a dispute with PayPal and simply says "I'm not paying for this". PayPal doesn't know what he's talking about, so I explain and they tell me they would reach out to eBay to confirm he altered/damaged the item which would void his right to return on PayPal also. A week later, PayPal closes it on my favor and said the item isn't returnable since it was altered/damaged.

    Two months pass and all of a sudden PayPal takes the money from my account and the case is reopened. I call them and the rep is puzzled says "it shouldn't be reopened", tries to close it and tells me "PayPal Credit opened it and I'll send a request for them to close it". I ask for a supervisor to get it closed now who tells me "Only PayPal Credit can decide on it", agrees "this isn't a valid case for the buyer" and tells me "not to worry, I'm 100% sure you'll win".

    Except three days ago I got a threatening email from PayPal saying I must supply my return address and if I don't I won't get my item back (they already took the money out of my account). Now when I try to call PayPal they are just being short and shoving it under the rug "I can't tell what's going on, I didn't decide on it", "No you can't talk to PayPal credit", "No, I can't reach out to them or anything".

    Pretty obvious what's happened, PayPal Credit essentially paid for the item and since they can't get the buyer to pay them back they are trying to shove a return down my throat for something that's altered/damaged (which is in their policy that it's not returnable).

    Yeah I know their user agreement says you can't ever sue us, it's between buyers/sellers so you need to go after them blah blah. But the buyer didn't do anything. PayPal simply can't collect repayment on the loan they handed out and instead of sending it to collections or counting it as a loss, they are trying to shove a damaged item down my throat
  2. adjusterjack

    adjusterjack Super Moderator

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    If you do business regularly on eBay and PayPal it should be clear to you that the buyer is protected and not the seller. It's clear to me and I only buy stuff knowing I'm guaranteed a refund if I am not satisfied. I never have, and never will, sell anything on eBay.

    Sure, you can sue PayPal, in spite of the agreement but it will probably cost you more than $450 to sue and you'll probably lose.

    If you do business regularly, chalk it up as a risk you take and the cost of doing business, and get over it.

    If you are just cleaning out your closet and selling stuff infrequently, do it on Craigslist locally and get cash. Then you won't have this kind of problem.
    hrforme likes this.
  3. mightymoose

    mightymoose Moderator

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    If this is going to be resolved it will be done by you continuing to contact PayPal and trying as calmly and politely as possible to discuss the matter. If you can find an appropriate way to make a written complaint you should do that as well. If they have assigned you any kind of ID number for your complaint be sure to include it every time you contact.
    Persistence and patience... and a bit of luck.
  4. army judge

    army judge Super Moderator

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    PayPal is one of many unnecessary money scams.

    That ALONE is reason enough to stay far away form all things PayPal.
  5. Michael Wechsler

    Michael Wechsler Administrator Staff Member

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    Actually, I have personal experience here and can tell you that it's very difficult to be sure who is protected at eBay and the "Buyer Protection Policy" that they have can either work for you or against you. I have found it incomplete, illogically applied and, at least from my experience, an operation that somehow keeps money within their ecosystem (making money on "the float") for far longer than it should, in my opinion. The question becomes who will engage in enforcement?

    A true story about my experience with eBay and Paypal. I bought an item for about $140 which the seller probably didn't have in stock but entered a shipping label tracking number to "freeze" the sale from any cancellation or return request. After the shipper missed the shipping date, I contacted the shipper 3 times noting, on and after the first message, that if I didn't obtain an immediate answer, I needed to obtain cover and they should not ship the phone. I sent a message to the shipper to not ship the phone and put in a refund request with eBay. Remarkably, eBay denied my claim. Eventually the phone shipped (several days after the expected arrival date) and I refused delivery and it was sent back directly to the shipper.

    Now here is the kicker - eBay agreed with me that the Seller didn't ship on time, didn't respond to 3+ messages and, in fact, didn't even communicate at all. They acknowledged I refused delivery and the Seller had no loss (except for shipping fees but was directly at fault) as the phone was shipped directly back to the seller. Furthermore, the item was listed as shipping from California, in further derogation of eBay's rules. This sounds like a case of your quintessential bad eBay seller and the innocent buyer should have no problem.

    eBay ruled against me -- and I was flabbergasted. I was told by eBay that what I should have done was taken custody of the item (accepted delivery) and then filed with them to have them make a decision to obtain a return label from them. That was the only way they were going to honor their Buyer Protection Policy. Not only do I find it completely unclear that this is required (I don't believe it is) but I wouldn't have been able to ship back in a timely fashion as I was leaving on a trip, in addition to not being sure who to ship back to since the address didn't appear to be from the state of origin!! They said I can open a case at Paypal and said, with certainty, that I would get a refund and that they would send information to Paypal to support my claim.

    I had to fight PayPal - which denied my first claim. So much for eBay's guarantee and follow up with evidence. I was furious. The Seller had custody of the item. Why was eBay and Paypal allowing the Seller to get a windfall from keeping money I paid for the phone which they unquestionably had? I appealed the decision and called up Paypal yet again to speak to someone. I told them that I unquestionably would be taking action against them and won't hesitate to share this with the press and online - and no one would be sympathetic to Paypal.

    The Paypal representative told me that the first filing I made was denied via their automatic system and that most of the time these claims are denied. What a surprise. Appeals are typically performed manually by a human. He guaranteed he'd push my appeal through for a manual review.

    Within 24 hours I was finally granted a successful appeal at Paypal and the money returned to my account.
    mightymoose and army judge like this.

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