Damage from hitting curb on company property

[ohawken18]

Jurisdiction

Indiana

There was a travel advisory because of freezing rain and snow this morning and although the main roads were cleared my company did not bother to plow or to salt their HQ property. As a result, entering from the main road today I slid right into a curb at maybe 5-15mph. Now on top of rim curb rash, I suspect there could be mechanical damage to my car as well because, on the way back home from work, I heard sounds and felt a difference in the way it drove. Legally who would be responsible for this? Is there any way I could get my company to pay for this without going to small claims court? How would submitting an insurance claim even work? Since I am an employee, i'm trying to tread lightly on this situation without souring relations and get this potential problem fixed. I've already submitted a complaint to OSHA because new requirements require employers to keep all working walk surfaces free and clear of ice and snow. But OSHA won't likely be able to compensate me at all for damages. I also found out that the company property is adjacent to a public city sidewalk and under Municipal code Sec. 18-7. - Removal of snow and ice from sidewalks is required and the responsibility of the property owner. Yet they have never bothered to keep the sidewalks clear either. So they are in violation of multiple codes/laws. Is it possible to use this and prove that they're negligent and their negligence led to my accident?

Here's documentation that I have already.
-dash cam video of me sliding into the curb and pulling up to the company.
-pictures of company parking lot shortly after and its condition
-pictures of the driveway off the main road that I slid on.
- screenshot of weather advisory for this morning

 

[ohawken18]

I bought a set of 4 tires at costco and had my tires changed out. After they were done, I noticed that the damaged one of my rims! It's been almost a month now and they still won't take responsibility for the damage saying that they have video but can't find any evidence that they were the ones who caused the damage. Neither they or their insurance will claim responsibility for it. I don't know what else to do at this point. What are the chances i'd win in a small claims court? New rim costs $325. I've talked to the store manager, their insurance nobody will budge.

Couple facts:
My rims are under a year old
I'm meticulous with the maintenance of my car and have records to show it

 

[adjusterjack]

But do you have any proof (photos) that the rim was flawless before it went to Costco?

That looks like wear and tear to me. It certainly doesn't look like anything that can happen during a tire change.

Your chances in court are slim to none without proof of the prior condition of the rim.

 

[adjusterjack]

Freezing rain and snow this morning? And the same morning you slid in the icy parking lot. Your employer wouldn't have had much of a chance to get any equipment out there for removal of ice and snow.

Sorry, you have no claim against your employer or his insurance.

I think you were going too fast for conditions. You might have to eat this one yourself.

 

[ohawken18]

Freezing rain and snow this morning? And the same morning you slid in the icy parking lot. Your employer wouldn't have had much of a chance to get any equipment out there for removal of ice and snow.

Sorry, you have no claim against your employer or his insurance.

I think you were going too fast for conditions. You might have to eat this one yourself.

to clarify, the snow and ice happened over night. When the incident happened it was already 8:40am. Plenty of other businesses had already plowed and salted except for us...

my dash cam footage shows otherwise. I was going slow into the drive. Main roads like I said were already cleared. If the city can get crews out before the morning rush I see no reason why my employer couldn't. I guess even if you are right I'll still report them to OHSHA and the city for violating codes. Forecast called for snow and ice this morning. You prep ahead of time and have to make a reasonable effort to remove snow and ice. There is no salting whatsoever on the property so that throws their reasonable effort right out the window.

Also Had I actually slipped and fell on the ice walking into work from my car, they would have also been liable for being negligent. How would the case with my car be any different?

 

[mightymoose]

The damage in the photo does not look like anything that would be caused by tools or lift equipment. It looks like these are not chrome rims but treated or "dipped" rims that are flaking.
If the rims have a warranty you should be looking at that for corrective action. I don't see any shop taking responsibility for what is in that photo.

 

[mightymoose]

Legally who would be responsible for this?

You are responsible for maintaining control of the vehicle. Given the conditions it was your responsibility to drive slowly enough that sliding into the curb would not happen, or to not drive at all if conditions were unsafe.

Your own insurance should help cover any damage. If you value your job you probably shouldn't pursue the employer over this.

 

[ohawken18]

Alright. Well I'll just file with osha and the city anyway. At least they'll be fined good and plenty. I'm legit confused. So if you fall at work and value your job you shouldn't claim workers comp too?

 

[cbg]

Do you know, specifically, who has the contract to salt and treat your employer's property? Do you know, specifically, how many other locations they are responsible for?

 

[adjusterjack]

to clarify, the snow and ice happened over night. When the incident happened it was already 8:40am. Plenty of other businesses had already plowed and salted except for us...

Which doesn't necessarily make your employer negligent for not getting it done by 8:40 AM.

If you feel different you can make the negligence argument in court if your employer doesn't want to pay for your damage.

Had I actually slipped and fell on the ice walking into work from my car, they would have also been liable for being negligent.

Again, just because it happened, doesn't automatically make the employer liable, whether it's injury or damage.

The burden of proving negligence is on you.

if you fall at work and value your job you shouldn't claim workers comp too?

That's a rather silly remark. There is a separate set of strict laws governing an employees rights to workers compensation. The injured employee is not required to prove negligence so the comparison is irrelevant.

 

[ohawken18]

But do you have any proof (photos) that the rim was flawless before it went to Costco?

That looks like wear and tear to me. It certainly doesn't look like anything that can happen during a tire change.

Your chances in court are slim to none without proof of the prior condition of the rim.

I don't know who consolidated my item. But these are two separate events. And yes, I do have pictures showing the rims are completely flawless before. In case you didn't know, PVD is extremely durable. The photo I shot was before going into the tire center. After the tire center the same rim's PVD coating was torn completely off. Not even driving into something would have torn it off like that.

 

[ohawken18]

Do you know, specifically, who has the contract to salt and treat your employer's property? Do you know, specifically, how many other locations they are responsible for?

I do not, but the company I work for is in the car wash industry, and at our 8 stores the salting and plowing is all done BEFORE opening which is promptly before 7am. At HQ employees start arriving at 6-7am. Logic dictates that if people are already there at that time, that it's NOT unreasonable to expect that snow and ice have been removed or that an attempt has been made to do so shortly after. I brushed up on accident law, and it also seems that the laws regarding accidents are different on public vs private property. If an accident happens on public property you can't hold the state liable. If it happens on private property, a private property owner can definitely be held responsible if they did nothing to remedy hazardous situations before an accident occurred.

 

[adjusterjack]

If it happens on private property, a private property owner can definitely be held responsible if they did nothing to remedy hazardous situations before an accident occurred.

It's not that simple. A common defense against an allegation of negligence is that the hazard occurred so close in time to the accident that there was no way of remedying the hazard in time to prevent the accident.

I think that's what you have here regardless of your insistence that your employer should have had the lot cleared by the time employees showed up to work.

By the way, did any of your co-workers lose control of their vehicles upon entering the parking lot? If none did then contributory negligence has to be considered, which is another defense.

 

[mightymoose]

So if you fall at work and value your job you shouldn't claim workers comp too?

You didn't fall at work and you weren't doing anything work related other than showing up.
This is not an OSHA issue. You will just make people angry if you pursue this.
Your comparison with a workplace injury is not reasonable.

 

[Disabled Vet]

I would say you need to look for another job. Don't think they will keep you around long with all your crying over small issues. You were going to fast for the conditions and slide into the curve. Be thankful it was there as it kept you from hitting those trees. Slow down..... I live in Indiana and would like to stay safe on the roads.

 

[ohawken18]

It's not that simple. A common defense against an allegation of negligence is that the hazard occurred so close in time to the accident that there was no way of remedying the hazard in time to prevent the accident.

I think that's what you have here regardless of your insistence that your employer should have had the lot cleared by the time employees showed up to work.

By the way, did any of your co-workers lose control of their vehicles upon entering the parking lot? If none did then contributory negligence has to be considered, which is another defense.

No because drive trucks. Which means

I would say you need to look for another job. Don't think they will keep you around long with all your crying over small issues. You were going to fast for the conditions and slide into the curve. Be thankful it was there as it kept you from hitting those trees. Slow down..... I live in Indiana and would like to stay safe on the roads.

how hard is it to salt a parking lot the night before? Or even a couple days before?

the argument that they didn't have enough time to remedy the situation won't stick in a court of law. Remedy means at minimum you were aware of the a hazardous situation and took steps to mitigate it. It's pretty hard this day in age to prove you don't have access to a weather report via a cellphone. And I'm sure any Indiana native knows ice is a hazard. Especially if you are a long time native.

It doesn't matter. I already reported them for osha violations. And they have tons of other regulatory rules they don't follow as well. Either way I'm not paying for this out of my pocket. If worse comes to I'm filing insurance and telling them it was my company's fault. The company I work for expects me to use my vehicle for work beyond just commuting to and from work. I don't get any mileage reimbursement, gas money, and any time I spend paying for gas on a errand is time that isn't paid either. They do not own my car, they do not make the payments on it, and they are putting undue mileage on it in the form of extra wear and tear. When I asked for mileage and gas they said no but gave it to other employees instead. Nothing short of yet another legal problem, discrimination lawsuit.

who is really being nit picky here? Car maintenance isn't $10,20. It costs thousands of dollars. It's a substantial business related cost to me that my employer does not reimburse.

I have an app that keeps track of my company mileage, and to date I've driven over 2500 miles for the company. They even asked me to make errands on long trips of 3+ just to deliver shit when it's not in my job description. After I factor in the costs of car ownership, gas, etc my hourly is just barely above minimum.
If any of you idiots have actually driven in snow or ice it's not about how fast you are going, black ice is black ice. You will slide no matter how slow or fast you are going because there is no friction. No friction means no grip.

 

[cbg]

"Logic" and the law do not necessarily go together. Logic also says that whoever does have that contract cannot be everywhere at once and some places are going to be done before other places.

I live in snow country. And I know, even if you don't, that it's simply not possible for everyplace to be cleared before business hours and that failure to do so is NOT an OSHA violation.

But you do what you want. It's no skin off the nose of anyone here.

 

[ohawken18]

"Logic" and the law do not necessarily go together. Logic also says that whoever does have that contract cannot be everywhere at once and some places are going to be done before other places.

I live in snow country. And I know, even if you don't, that it's simply not possible for everyplace to be cleared before business hours and that failure to do so is NOT an OSHA violation.

But you do what you want. It's no skin off the nose of anyone here.

Im not making things up. You can go look at OSHA's website. Www.Osha.gov/laws-regs/regulations/standardnumber/1910/1910.22

look at standards
1910.22(a)(3)
1910.22(c)
1910.22(d)(1)
1910.22 (d)(2)

Regulations are plain and simple. Work surfaces, including parking lots must be free and clear of ice or snow. If the employer was not able to correct the issue the hazard must be guarded to prevent employees from using the walking working surface until hazard is corrected or repaired. These are OSHAs words not mine.

here is a link to a previous citation of similar nature by OSHA, which can be used as precedent. OSHA.gov/pls/imis/generalsearch.citation_detail?id=313208670&cit_id01001

in this example the establishment was cited because the employer did not furnish a place of employment that was free of snow and ice surrounding work building. In addition the employer did not adequately sand or treat the walking surface between the main building and employee work vehicle lofs to keep them free of ice and snow.

Its all right here in black and white. Not only did my car have a difficult time making into the lot, I could hardly park, and also walking to the door I almost slipped and fell more than twice

 

[Zigner]

Oh brother. You lost control of your vehicle...plain and simple. Take some responsibility already.

 

[Disabled Vet]

If any of you idiots have actually driven in snow or ice it's not about how fast you are going, black ice is black ice. You will slide no matter how slow or fast you are going because there is no friction. No friction means no grip.

No one here has called you names.... I also live in Indiana... Black Ice, Pink Ice, Thick Ice, Thin Ice....etc... can be stopped on if you are driving for the conditions. People lose control on ICE for the simple fact they are NOT driving for the conditions. I can remember taking my daughter out driving in a big parking lot during a snow storm. We did sudden braking, donuts, sliding, fishtails etc...... pumping the brakes are key. Most cars have traction control these days. Again if you are driving for the conditions. Clearly you came off a roadway that was somewhat clear. Then entered the parking lot that wasn't as clear as the roadway. Since your speed was to fast for the conditions of the parking lot entrance you rammed the curb. You site various OSHA items.... OSHA does use common sense when applying these rules. You should hire a lawyer, pay thousands to get nothing in return. Except learning common sense goes a long way.