Other Criminal Charges & Offenses Charged with battery while recovering my child's stolen bicycle

[viper515]

Jurisdiction

Kansas

This is a municipal small town charge.

Son't bike was stolen from our home. Called cops and made a verbal report. 2 days later my son told me that he was informed by a student while walking home that he knew who stole the bike. My son and I went to make contact with the informant to see if he was full of it or not. His responses seemed credible but did not know the suspect's last name or where he lived, but had an idea of the area where he lived.

I decided we would drive through the area with my son to just see if we can spot the bicycle. We actually spotted the bike. It was laying in the front grassy area at an apartment complex. No one was outside or around the bike. I asked my son to step out so we can confirm it was his before we call the cops.

As we examined the bike, a teen stepped outside. I asked his name and confirmed the name matched the informant info. I asked if the bike was his and he said yes. I informed him that the bike was stolen, is ours, and we need to call the cops to resolve the matter. He then stepped in to take the bike to attempt to flea on it. I stood firm with the bike and my phone and told him the cops need to resolve this matter.

Then the teen's belligerent mother came out screaming at me, saying she would beat my ass, you don't threaten my son, etc. I tried to explain but it was of little use. I had control of the bike but she made attempts to take it from me, then got very close to me threatening me. I have collected the 911 audio files which confirm I was on the phone with the cops while she was screaming at me. I had strong belief she was going to hit me and the teen even indicated "she will hit you".

I decided to put the bike in back of my truck which was 10ft away. Her and the teen followed and she continued to grab at the bike in my vehicle. I continued my attempt to explain the bike was stolen and I was calling the cops.

Then the teen threatened me by saying "mom, I'm gunna stab this mfr!" He then pulled up his shirt and reached for a knife in his waste band. His mother was standing right there and did nothing. I was shocked. I then uncovered my concealed firearm and told him "son, do NOT do that". He backed off, then authorities arrived. There was no firearms charge or wrong doing. I was within my rights there.

The woman claimed she suffered a scratch to her leg during the altercation and I was arrested for battery BUT it was confirmed on scene that the teen lied and stole the bike. There is a photo of a scratch but cannot be confirmed when it actually occurred.

I have confirmed with the apartment complex that the area where the bike was is considered "commons area" not tenant private property.

I intend to litigate as pro-se and my defenses are statute 21-5225, which indicates an owner in lawful possession of their property other than a dwelling has a right to use reasonable force to prevent unlawful interference with the property. I would also like to present the fact that she had already assaulted me with verbal threats and we due to the fact that she freely engaged me, we cannot determine if the injury was caused by me or her own doing.

The woman claims "someone" called her posing as the owner of the bike and said it was OK for her son to have the bike. I intend to subpoena phone records to this fact. I suspect even if someone did call her, a normal person would suspect the bike was stolen.

The bike had been altered and partially defaced in at attempt to change the appearance of the bike. The bike was returned to our possession but the city has not yet file charges against the teen which irritates me.

My first appearance is today and I intend to request a continuance while I gather the case files for review. I am somewhat hopeful the DA will drop the charge but unlikely. As well, the city judge WILL find in favor of the city at trial and I would have to appeal with district court to get a fair trial.

I would like to know if my defenses hold water and if I may present multiple defenses at trial?

 

[KatDini]

You've waited a bit late, didn't you?

 

[viper515]

You've waited a bit late, didn't you?

LOL. Just a first appearance.

 

[army judge]

LOL. Just a first appearance.

I suggest you consult a couple of criminal defense attorneys, ASAP.

Have you pondered the possibility of how a guilty verdict will negatively impact your life?

You might be wise to reconsider your desire to proceed "pro se"!!!!

 

[viper515]

I cannot afford an attorney at this time. I am not sure of the requirements for a public defender in this matter either.

I do not really expect jail time but I guess that is possible. The judge is a little crooked here. I had hoped to communicate with the DA first to determine where they are headed.

 

[adjusterjack]

I intend to litigate as pro-se and my defenses are statute 21-5225, which indicates an owner in lawful possession of their property other than a dwelling has a right to use reasonable force to prevent unlawful interference with the property.

The problem with that defense is that all you had was an unproven allegation that it was your property. You could not KNOW that it was your property without comparing the serial number of the bike with the serial number in your purchase records (thousands of bikes look alike) and there's nothing in your post that suggests you were able to do that prior to the altercation where the woman and her son were claiming it belonged to them.

That the bike was confirmed stolen AFTER the altercation isn't going to help you.

You'd better get yourself a criminal defense attorney. Going it alone on a criminal charge is just plain stupid.

 

[ElleMD]

Next time, just call the police and let them go check it out. As you learned, playing vigilante can have dire consequences.

You really do need an attorney and the bike ultimately being your son's does not excuse any assault if there was one. Trying to grab the bike away was clearly a mistake, especially if officer were on their way or present.

 

[army judge]

I cannot afford an attorney at this time. I am not sure of the requirements for a public defender in this matter either.

Can you afford to have a criminal conviction on your pristine criminal record?

Incarceration isn't the ONLY negative outcome.

You could also be facing a civil lawsuit from the mother and son bike thief tag team, too.

There's more at stake here than you imagine, mate.

The fact that you were armed could cause the prosecutor to up the ante.

Talking to the prosecutor by a person unskilled in the law could also be very devastating.

You're setting yourself up for what I call the Humpty Dumpty Result.

It is ALWAYS best to make no statement, plead not guilty, inquire of the judge if you qualify for a public defender.

Then start talking to local lawyers. The initial consultation is FREE.

 

[viper515]

I just wanted to clarify a few things.

1. There should be not concerns with the firearm. I am armed all the time, per KS law.
2. This is not a case of vigilante justice. We were just looking for the bike. Obviously the cops will not turn over every rock looking for a stolen bike.
3. I did not take the bike from her, she tried taking from me.

I realize there is discrepancy in "lawful possession" here but it would only be unlawful possession if the bike turned out to not be ours. I realize serials are the ultimate but I think most reasonable people can determine based on key identifiers on the property. The police pretty much gave us the property back on scene indicating we had enough evidence to the fact.

Due to the bike being in a commons area, this is not entrance to the tenant's property.

Elle, I am curious about your mention of assault? Are you saying I assaulted her? I was nothing but clear and calm through the whole thing. They escalated this matter.

The cops know the mother well. She is well known for supporting her criminal children. They knew the address instantly.

 

[army judge]

I just wanted to clarify a few things.

1. There should be not concerns with the firearm. I am armed all the time, per KS law.
2. This is not a case of vigilante justice. We were just looking for the bike. Obviously the cops will not turn over every rock looking for a stolen bike.
3. I did not take the bike from her, she tried taking from me.

I realize there is discrepancy in "lawful possession" here but it would only be unlawful possession if the bike turned out to not be ours. I realize serials are the ultimate but I think most reasonable people can determine based on key identifiers on the property. The police pretty much gave us the property back on scene indicating we had enough evidence to the fact.

Due to the bike being in a commons area, this is not entrance to the tenant's property.

That's how MOST criminal defendants cause more trouble for themselves.

What you've just posted are your opinions about a certain unfortunate event.

By the way, none of that would mean anything at trial.
In fact, it would never come in.
Criminal trials aren't debates.

Last, but most importantly, if what you posted is true, why did you get arrested and the mom and son duo remain free?

Never overestimate your position, while underestimating the position of your adversary.

 

[viper515]

I asked exactly that the next day. I knew the cops that arrested me. They were not excited about doing it. I met with them the next day briefly and I asked them why she was not arrested or even the teen for obvious theft. The detective on scene mentioned that I did not disclose that the teen threatened me with a deadly weapon before displaying it but he was aware he had one and he found it on his person. I told him at that time that I really only gave a vague statement as I expected him to come back to me to gather more details.

The detective seriously talked with me for maybe 1min and I briefed him of the situation, they all then went back to talk to the mother for about 20min. The next thing I knew, I was going to jail. Even the detective said he pretty much knew I had zero intention of causing harm and probably not even aware of it but she has a scratch, she wants to press it, I am hosed...

I am not sure if charges against her can even be filed. I have the audio tapes. I was calm and talked with the dispatch while she was yelling at me.

What is funny is stories kept changing once I was hauled off. The teen lied to officers, mom was full of it too, and I want the chance to prove she is lying. I told the detective when he mention some mysterious phone call granting ownership that there will be a phone record of that for sure.

Even at that, a phone call from someone you don't know granting ownership does not legally constitute ownership.


I guess beyond the "opinion" side here, the bike was in a commons area, it is our bike, I have legal right to our own property. She intervened and assaulted me over it and tried to take it from me.

 

[viper515]

Continued the case for a month. Chatted wit prosecutor and he is indicating a likelihood of either plea to disorderly or may not prosecute it. I mad mention of the ongoing investigation on the bicycle theft and apparently the city kicks all those back to the district courts so I will have to follow up on that. I will probably request to continue this further until I find out more on the theft case as it has bearing on my battery case.

 

[army judge]

I asked exactly that the next day. I knew the cops that arrested me. They were not excited about doing it. I met with them the next day briefly and I asked them why she was not arrested or even the teen for obvious theft. The detective on scene mentioned that I did not disclose that the teen threatened me with a deadly weapon before displaying it but he was aware he had one and he found it on his person. I told him at that time that I really only gave a vague statement as I expected him to come back to me to gather more details.

The detective seriously talked with me for maybe 1min and I briefed him of the situation, they all then went back to talk to the mother for about 20min. The next thing I knew, I was going to jail. Even the detective said he pretty much knew I had zero intention of causing harm and probably not even aware of it but she has a scratch, she wants to press it, I am hosed...

I am not sure if charges against her can even be filed. I have the audio tapes. I was calm and talked with the dispatch while she was yelling at me.

What is funny is stories kept changing once I was hauled off. The teen lied to officers, mom was full of it too, and I want the chance to prove she is lying. I told the detective when he mention some mysterious phone call granting ownership that there will be a phone record of that for sure.

Even at that, a phone call from someone you don't know granting ownership does not legally constitute ownership.


I guess beyond the "opinion" side here, the bike was in a commons area, it is our bike, I have legal right to our own property. She intervened and assaulted me over it and tried to take it from me.

Any criminal defendant in the United States is cloaked in the presumption of innocence by our constitution. That same criminal defendant has the constitutional right to remain mute, as in silent. That defendant isn't required to PROVE a damn thing. That burden, my friend, rests solely with the government.

No good can ever come of giving a statement, or trying to explain to the police. You have no duty to say a darn thing.

Self help remedies generally end up causing harm to the actor. I advise all of my clients to avoid self help. You called the police. You should have waited and done nothing until they arrived.

No jury will ever believe that a punk kid advises his mother that he's going to cut you. Thugs like that simply cut you.

You've created a very expensive problem playing detective and high lord protector over a bicycle. Even if you had to purchase a new bike, you'd have walked away cheaper than this escapade will end up costing you.

Look at this video, which will explain clearly why you're on a fool's errand:

 

[army judge]

Continued the case for a month. Chatted wit prosecutor and he is indicating a likelihood of either plea to disorderly or may not prosecute it. I mad mention of the ongoing investigation on the bicycle theft and apparently the city kicks all those back to the district courts so I will have to follow up on that. I will probably request to continue this further until I find out more on the theft case as it has bearing on my battery case.

Just so you know, I'm on your side.
I'm pulling for you, mate.
Unfortunately, these days the good guys aren't treated all that well.

I own many guns, fancying myself a collector.
I, too, can carry concealed because I'm a retired state judge; and just got my open carry.
These days I rarely carry.
My wife says I'm too hot headed.
I agree with her because of my PTSD acquired after 4 years in 'Nam and 30 years of active service.
Good luck, please keep us posted, and I'll try to help where I can.

 

[viper515]

Thank you. I want to better understand you. Now, mind you the young man did not threaten me until we were all 3 standing by my truck and they were both trying to get at OUR bicycle. But, what you are saying is that seems far fetched that the young man verbally threatened me? Just curious. The facts in the case basically are that the cops were told I had a firearm before arriving. They asked what happened and I said he threatened me with a knife and then pulled up his shirt. They found the knife on him.

But as far as the verbal threat that he was going to stab me? I did not expand on my explanation beyond that but I honestly thought it was an empty threat, then he actually pulled up his shirt. I could not believe it! I honestly figured mom would stop her kid but she did nothing! If this kid was a few yrs older, this might have went real wrong.


Also, to better understand you and the prosecutor, they have a duty to PROVE this injury was sustained by my hand and not her own or would that be of question? I honestly believe the evidence would prove she sustained an injury that day but by my hand? Who knows? She was like a rabid money!

 

[adjusterjack]

She was like a rabid money!

Do you mean rabid monkey?

 

[army judge]

Thank you. I want to better understand you. Now, mind you the young man did not threaten me until we were all 3 standing by my truck and they were both trying to get at OUR bicycle. But, what you are saying is that seems far fetched that the young man verbally threatened me? Just curious. The facts in the case basically are that the cops were told I had a firearm before arriving. They asked what happened and I said he threatened me with a knife and then pulled up his shirt. They found the knife on him.

But as far as the verbal threat that he was going to stab me? I did not expand on my explanation beyond that but I honestly thought it was an empty threat, then he actually pulled up his shirt. I could not believe it! I honestly figured mom would stop her kid but she did nothing! If this kid was a few yrs older, this might have went real wrong.


Also, to better understand you and the prosecutor, they have a duty to PROVE this injury was sustained by my hand and not her own or would that be of question? I honestly believe the evidence would prove she sustained an injury that day but by my hand? Who knows? She was like a rabid money!

You don't need to worry about my thoughts.
Take a look at the video, and maybe this will become very clear.

Its never wise to try and explain or discuss anything with the police once the finger of suspicion begins to point in your direction, mate.

 

[viper515]

Judge, I was contacted by the local PD to inform of formal charges filed in our county juvenile jurisdiction to include at least theft and conspiracy against this alleged battery victim's son. I have another appearance scheduled on this battery case in a couple weeks. I was going to ask the judge for a continuance until the verdict in that case as there are facts in that case that are relevant to my battery case. I am curious if that can work or would I have to just deal with the battery case as-is with potential for a appeal later with new evidence?

I have drafted a letter to the prosecutor along with my discovery requests to basically indicate that there is proof the thieves lied to officers multiple times so I intend to attack their credibility first.

I also vaguely included the fact that the 911 audio tapes seem to be inconsistent with with the alleged victim's account of events. I did not elaborate but all the evidence will prove that the alleged victim engaged me on free will and there is no evidence to prove I caused her injury as it is just as likely she caused that herself.

I am sort of with the belief if I drag this out long enough and make it difficult, the city prosecutor will lose interest. I do not believe this prosecutor has any agenda to be a court room bully and I think just as happy to see it just go away.

 

[army judge]

Judge, I was contacted by the local PD to inform of formal charges filed in our county juvenile jurisdiction to include at least theft and conspiracy against this alleged battery victim's son. I have another appearance scheduled on this battery case in a couple weeks. I was going to ask the judge for a continuance until the verdict in that case as there are facts in that case that are relevant to my battery case. I am curious if that can work or would I have to just deal with the battery case as-is with potential for a appeal later with new evidence?

I have drafted a letter to the prosecutor along with my discovery requests to basically indicate that there is proof the thieves lied to officers multiple times so I intend to attack their credibility first.

I also vaguely included the fact that the 911 audio tapes seem to be inconsistent with with the alleged victim's account of events. I did not elaborate but all the evidence will prove that the alleged victim engaged me on free will and there is no evidence to prove I caused her injury as it is just as likely she caused that herself.

I am sort of with the belief if I drag this out long enough and make it difficult, the city prosecutor will lose interest. I do not believe this prosecutor has any agenda to be a court room bully and I think just as happy to see it just go away.

I've seen your strategy work i n municipal courts and justice of the peace courts, especially if the defendant is good guy, working man, and no criminal record.

However, the alleged "victim" might not show, and you could get the case dismissed.

I get the impression the alleged "victim" and the female who "calfed" him, they aren't the most upright folks in town.

 

[viper515]

Well, no sense in being quaint, I do have a minor record, but disorderly and dui from prob 15yrs ago. College life...

No, the cops are already aware this lady is a little off but.... I guess what I am asking for now is, since you have sat in "the chair", would I have reasonable grounds to be granted a continuance based on this theft case? That could drag out for another several months I would think! How do I approach that with the judge?

And probably no bonner point for me but I sort of argued it out in a trial with the judge a few yrs back over a zoning board issue that the courts did not even have jurisdiction in. I had to file an appeal with the district court before they would drop it because this judge convicted me of........LOL, I don't even know!!!! There was not even an ordinance number he could attach to it! IMO, ILLEGAL....In short, I have concerns with this judge....