Can an MP issue a speeding ticket to a civilian off-base, citing state code? (Posse Comitatus?)

[NDub]

Jurisdiction

Virginia

I was charged with a speeding violation, (VA state code 46.2.820), on a state or possibly Fairfax County road. The road leads to the gate of Marine Corps Base Quantico, but is outside its gates. It was immediately off an I-95 exit (which the citation confirms). However, I was pulled over, and the citation was issued, by a Marine Police. I am not a military member. From what I understand: MP authority does not extend to civilians outside areas under military jurisdiction or control. The military cannot be used to help execute civilian law. The Posse Comitatus Act provides that whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or by act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army to execute civil law shall be fined not more than $10,000 or imprisoned not more than two years or both. Therefore, as a civilian the Military Police should not have jurisdiction to enforce VA state code against me.
Additionally while there may be some sort of concurrent jurisdiction on the area outside of a base, an MP should not have police power over a civilian off of a base, because concurrent jurisdiction is granted by the The Assimilative Crimes Act, 18 U.S.C. § 13, which should not apply, because, per the code, "Prosecutions instituted under this statute are not to enforce the laws of the state, but to enforce Federal law".
I am not concerned with getting out of the $130 fine, but with the use of the Military being used to enforce state code and policing civilians off-base.

I am wanting to know the specific US code that would give the MP the authority to issue me, a civilian, a state code violation citation off-base.

 

[adjusterjack]

You seem quite capable of looking up and reading statutes and codes since you've managed to refer to several.

I suggest you google the topic and come back and report what you find.

I am wanting to know the specific US code that would give the MP the authority to issue me, a civilian, a state code violation citation off-base.

Go back to the base MP office and ask.

 

[mightymoose]

Just because you were outside the gate does not mean you were outside their jurisdiction. The government property may extend beyond the location of the gates. I don't know if that is the case here.
Another possibility is that the military police have an agreement with local law enforcement for the area just outside the base.
In short, a jurisdiction argument will not likely work if you challenge in court.

 

[Ndub1]

Just because you were outside the gate does not mean you were outside their jurisdiction. The government property may extend beyond the location of the gates. I don't know if that is the case here.
Another possibility is that the military police have an agreement with local law enforcement for the area just outside the base.
In short, a jurisdiction argument will not likely work if you challenge in court.

Regarding jurisdiction, this would be immediately after getting off an exit of I-95 (exit 148), but I know that probably doesn't help you. Even if it was their within their jurisdiction, how is the MP, who is not a state official, able to issue a state code citation? If I get off the exit, and it is in fact federal property, wouldn't it be a federal code violation?

 

[mightymoose]

If the local police have an agreement with the base for enforcement of that area then they can likely enforce the state code as well. It is my understanding that it is normal for MP to enforce the area immediately outside the base, but that may not be true at every base.
You can contact the city or county you believe that area belongs to and ask them if they have such an agreement with the base.

 

[Ndub1]

If the local police have an agreement with the base for enforcement of that area then they can likely enforce the state code as well. It is my understanding that it is normal for MP to enforce the area immediately outside the base, but that may not be true at every base.
You can contact the city or county you believe that area belongs to and ask them if they have such an agreement with the base.

If there is an agreement in place, wouldn't there need to be US code that would allow that agreement? Because, as mentioned in my OP, per Possee Comitatus, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or by act of Congress, the military can't enforce civilian law - which state code would be. I could find nothing that would give them the authority, the only code I could find allowing joint jurisdiction is the The Assimilative Crimes Act, 18 U.S.C. § 13.

667. Assimilative Crimes Act, 18 U.S.C. § 13 | USAM | Department of Justice

The reference on Justice.Gov states "Prosecutions instituted under this statute are not to enforce the laws of the state, but to enforce Federal law" Federal speeding violation code does exist, and that is not what I was charged under.

I could not find any US code that would allow MPs to enforce state code on a civilian, if it is not in fact federal land as soon as you get off I-95 exit 148.

I am wanting to know what code would allow this. I am more concerned with Military overreach and them policing civilians, than I am with getting out a fine.

 

[army judge]

I was charged with a speeding violation, (VA state code 46.2.820), on a state or possibly Fairfax County road. The road leads to the gate of Marine Corps Base Quantico, but is outside its gates. It was immediately off an I-95 exit (which the citation confirms). However, I was pulled over, and the citation was issued, by a Marine Police. I am not a military member. From what I understand: MP authority does not extend to civilians outside areas under military jurisdiction or control. The military cannot be used to help execute civilian law. The Posse Comitatus Act provides that whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or by act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army to execute civil law shall be fined not more than $10,000 or imprisoned not more than two years or both. Therefore, as a civilian the Military Police should not have jurisdiction to enforce VA state code against me.
Additionally while there may be some sort of concurrent jurisdiction on the area outside of a base, an MP should not have police power over a civilian off of a base, because concurrent jurisdiction is granted by the The Assimilative Crimes Act, 18 U.S.C. § 13, which should not apply, because, per the code, "Prosecutions instituted under this statute are not to enforce the laws of the state, but to enforce Federal law".
I am not concerned with getting out of the $130 fine, but with the use of the Military being used to enforce state code and policing civilians off-base.

I am wanting to know the specific US code that would give the MP the authority to issue me, a civilian, a state code violation citation off-base.

If you believe you were cited by a person lacking the legal authority to cite you, that's your defense.

I'm not saying that he/she didn't have the authority to cite you, I'm saying if its determined to be true, that could be your defense.

Its up to you to do the heavy lifting to prove such an assertion.

 

[Ndub1]

Was the person who issued the citation a member of the USMC?
Was he/she working with a partner?
Was the partner a DoD police officer, or Naval Police officer (both are federal agents)?

Yes, they were a member of the USMC. The person was a uniformed Marine Police Officer in a SUV marked as Marine Police. They were not working with a partner.

 

[Ndub1]

Was the person who issued the citation a member of the USMC?
Was he/she working with a partner?
Was the partner a DoD police officer, or Naval Police officer (both are federal agents)?

It was an SUV, but was labeled the same, or very similar to this

 

[Ndub1]

Also, to clarify, it is a "U.S. District Court Violation Notice" citing a state code, violation, is is payable to US District Court.

 

[army judge]

It was an SUV, but was labeled the same, or very similar to this

View attachment 1209

You must determine who cited you, not what he/she was driving.
Heck, he could have been walking.
If he/she was a civilian federal police officer, the citation was legal.

MP, as in military personnel have jurisdiction over those under the UCMJ.
Even then, such jurisdiction is more limited than a civilian police officer.
You also need to determine, as MM suggested, if the military has an agreement with the civil authorities to police on their turf.
You need to know if the base extends beyond what you see as fences.
Generally, military bases do, and they also have concurrent policing agreements with the locals.
But, that usually doesn't extend to MPs.
In fact, MPs rarely police off their assigned base.
Finally, if you were observed committing an offense on the base, the MPs can pursue you until you're stopped.
That is called "hot pursuit".
I suggest you read the citation, or post it here for us to examine.
With one look, I can tell you more.
Redact personal and identifying information if you do post the citation.

 

[Ndub1]

You must determine who cited you, not what he/she was driving.
Heck, he could have been walking.
If he/she was a civilian federal police officer, the citation was legal.

MP, as in military personnel have jurisdiction over those under the UCMJ.
Even then, such jurisdiction is more limited than a civilian police officer.
You also need to determine, as MM suggested, if the military has an agreement with the civil authorities to police on their turf.
You need to know if the base extends beyond what you see as fences.
Generally, military bases do, and they also have concurrent policing agreements with the locals.
But, that usually doesn't extend to MPs.
In fact, MPs rarely police off their assigned base.
Finally, if you were observed committing an offense on the base, the MPs can pursue you until you're stopped.
That is called "hot pursuit".
I suggest you read the citation, or post it here for us to examine.
With one look, I can tell you more.
Redact personal and identifying information if you do post the citation.

His badge was a "Marine Police" badge, and he was a uniformed Marine Police officer. It was a "U.S. District Court Violation Notice". It is a home, but I can post later.

 

[army judge]

His badge was a "Marine Police" badge, and he was a uniformed Marine Police officer. It was a "U.S. District Court Violation Notice". It is a home, but I can post later.

I suspect these are the folks you're describing.
...
Plans, Policies and Operations > Units > Security Division (PS) > Law Enforcement & Corrections (PSL) > Marine Corps Civilian Law Enforcement Program
...
They are also known as these guys DoD Police Officers:
...
Department of Defense police - Wikipedia
...
They are INDEED real, federal police officers/agents.
They are NOT USMC MPs, or active duty military police who enforce the UCMJ.

 

[Ndub1]

I suspect these are the folks you're describing.
...
Plans, Policies and Operations > Units > Security Division (PS) > Law Enforcement & Corrections (PSL) > Marine Corps Civilian Law Enforcement Program
...
They are INDEED real, federal police officers/agents.
They are NOT USMC MPs, or active duty military police who enforce the UCMJ.

I don't doubt he was real, but am questioning his authority to charge me with a state code violation. What is the US code that authorizes this? If they are Marine Corps Civilian Police, does this create a loophole for Posse Comitatus?

 

[army judge]

I don't doubt he was real, but am questioning his authority to charge me with a state code violation. What is the US code that authorizes this? If they are Marine Corps Civilian Police, does this create a loophole for Posse Comitatus?

This has nothing to do with "posse comitatus".
Those officers were civilians working on a Marine Base, but operating under the authority created when the DoD Police Force was established.

I suspect you were cited for an offense observed on base but the officer wasn't able to stop you until you got off base, , maybe the Marine Corps Police (who really are Navy Police, because the navy controls the USMC) operate off base pursuant to an agreement with the local government (less likely in your case, because the feds don't employ the cops for that purpose).

Yes, all civilians cited for offenses (many military too) are summoned to federal court for the matter to be heard by a US Magistrate.

I suggest you call the Marine Police Station, ask to speak witht he desk sargeant, and seek clarification/explanation of the agency's operating authority.

Heck, go visit, I'm sure an official would gladly explain everything to you.

 

[army judge]

One more surprise you'll encounter, the prosecutor is likely to be some young LT (JG) -Navy- or 1LT -USMC- JAG Officer.

JAG officers are also sworn US Assistant Attorneys, who assist in the prosecution of most cases on military bases.

Ahh, takes an old man back to different times. LOL

 

[Ndub1]

...
They are also known as these guys DoD Police Officers:
...
Department of Defense police - Wikipedia

This was helpful. Specifically Department of Defense police - Wikipedia

However, the wiki states, "Each jurisdiction [In this case Marine Corps Base Quantico] adopts the surrounding state's motor vehicle laws under the Assimilative Crimes Act (see Federal Jurisdiction).

So the co-jurisdictional authority is given by the Assimilative Crimes act as I thought. But the act states:
"The Assimilative Crimes Act, 18 U.S.C. § 13, makes state law applicable to conduct occurring on lands reserved or acquired by the Federal government as provided in 18 U.S.C. § 7(3), when the act or omission is not made punishable by an enactment of Congress."

If this was off-base, it seems that the act would not apply, if it is a county/state road.

One positive is that funds collected from these citations go directly to the victims of crime fund.

I suspect you were cited for an offense observed on base but the officer wasn't able to stop you until you got off base, , maybe the Marine Corps Police (who really are Navy Police, because the navy controls the USMC) operate off base pursuant to an agreement with the local government (less likely in your case, because the feds don't employ the cops for that purpose).

I was not on base, I was exiting I-95. This was on the road between the exit and the gate, the road does not exclusively lead to the marine corps base.

 

[army judge]

I was not on base, I was exiting I-95. This was on the road between the exit and the gate, the road does not exclusively lead to the marine corps base.

Interesting.

It is curious that you were cited on an off/entrance ramp to the Interstate.

My GUESS, that land on which you were stopped and cited is on the military reservation or within close proximity thereto, to allow MP to patrol and enforce the various laws.

What violation were you ALLEGED to have been observed committing?
I know less than you, but I bet the desk sergeant knows everything that baffles us.
Call him/her, ask your questions, I'm sure you'll receive useful answers.

 

[Ndub1]

Interesting.

It is curious that you were cited on an off/entrance ramp to the Interstate.

My GUESS, that land on which you were stopped and cited is on the military reservation or within close proximity thereto, to allow MP to patrol and enforce the various laws.

What violation were you ALLEGED to have been observed committing?
I know less than you, but I bet the desk sergeant knows everything that baffles us.
Call him/her, ask your questions, I'm sure you'll receive useful answers.

I was charged with speeding violation, (VA state code 46.2.820) on a District Court citation. I was driving a rental car, I had spent less than an hour total driving in and didn't realize my speed (I know that isn't a defense - just stating what happened). I was going to the base - but that should be irrelevant.

 

[army judge]

I was charged with speeding violation, (VA state code 46.2.820) on a District Court citation. I was driving a rental car, I had spent less than an hour total driving in and didn't realize my speed (I know that isn't a defense - just stating what happened). I was going to the base - but that should be irrelevant.

I suspected the citation was for speeding.
If you believe the officer had no authority to cite you, that's your defense.
However, I suspect the Marine Police have the lawful authority to issue such citations, because I live near a military base.
I'm a retired Army JAG, and know the presiding federal magistrate for the base.
He adjudicates these citations regularly.
I often enter upon the base for any one of a number of reasons.
The base is an army base, and the civilian police agency are DoD Police Officers.
I suspect the Marine Base operates under a similar or the same laws that the DoD police does.
The DoD police don't routinely run traffic, but will occasionally make traffic stops, and sometimes issue citations.
For the most part, they stop motorists to educate them, as off base (or between base transit) is to attend to military safety and business.
This base has remote facilities, mainly housing and training facilities, which the DoD cops are charged with policing and protecting.