Seeking reimbursement for missing catalytic in Subaru

[Walter685]

Jurisdiction

California

Hello,
First time at this site. Two weeks ago, I bought 2009 Subaru Forester with 108K mileage from used car lot in California for my daughter. Upon the driving home from the sale, about 40 miles away, the Check Engine suddenly came on. The following couple days I took the car to a local auto maintenance shop (have been using this shop many years for my other cars). Diagnostic code came up as P0420, and upon inspecting the cat converter, they found the cat converter was hollow (no honeycomb structure inside-this expensive material is used to filter out harmful exhaust gas). They also provided photos taken by the mechanics as proof and suggested that likely that the cat had been previously removed given that scratch mark found on the mounting bolts. I called the owner of the car sale, aka "G", but he claimed he wasn't aware of the issue when he had bought the car from auction. "G" said once the car left the lot, it's final.

So given the background, I have two questions:
1. Do I have legal case/right to pursue financial reimbursement from "G" for the replacement of the cat converter? I see this is the fraud case because the presumption of the sale is whatever components that came with the car should be with the car.

2. I did a research and there is PZEV Emissions Warranty (15yrs/150,000mi) California (code: P2764). It looks like my car would likely meet this requirement but I am not sure if the dealer would honor it, because the cat converter is 'tampered'. What's your opinion on this?

Your response is greatly appreciated. Thank you for your time.

Walter

 

[adjusterjack]

1. Do I have legal case/right to pursue financial reimbursement from "G" for the replacement of the cat converter? I see this is the fraud case because the presumption of the sale is whatever components that came with the car should be with the car.

The burden of proof (not just sayso) is on you to show that the dealer knew of the problem and did something to hide it. Common practice when buying a car at auction is buy, clean it, put it right out for sale, as is, with no testing or inspection, leaving the dealer with plausible deniability.

I don't know much about Check Engine Light issues. Ask your mechanic if the light had to have been on when the dealer bought the car. It's possible that the auction company (often just as shady as used car dealers) cleared the codes and they stayed clear temporarily.

Also ask, if you haven't already, how much to replace the converter. AutoZone has them from about $200 and up. With markup and labor you could be well under $1000 to replace it.

2009 Subaru Forester Catalytic Converter (autozone.com)

2. I did a research and there is PZEV Emissions Warranty (15yrs/150,000mi) California (code: P2764). It looks like my car would likely meet this requirement but I am not sure if the dealer would honor it, because the cat converter is 'tampered'. What's your opinion on this?

That question can be best answered by a phone call to the AC Air Resources Board.

California Vehicle and Emissions Warranty Periods | California Air Resources Board

 

[Foamback]

The warranty would not apply because it is a manufacturers warranty against failure and wear of the PZEV components. Removal is not wear

 

[flyingron]

How did this pass SMOG (the seller's responsibility)? Seems like there's some regulatory shenanigans going on here in addition to the fraud.

 

[Walter685]

How did this pass SMOG (the seller's responsibility)? Seems like there's some regulatory shenanigans going on here in addition to the fraud.

Today the owner of the auto shop that I took my car to has asked me to find out from the seller about this exact issue. He said I should inform the Bureau of Automotive Repair to look into this as well. Will attempt to talk to the seller after Thanksgiving to find out.

 

[Walter685]

The warranty would not apply because it is a manufacturers warranty against failure and wear of the PZEV components. Removal is not wear

Thanks for the answer. I afraid you're right about this.

 

[Walter685]

The burden of proof (not just sayso) is on you to show that the dealer knew of the problem and did something to hide it. Common practice when buying a car at auction is buy, clean it, put it right out for sale, as is, with no testing or inspection, leaving the dealer with plausible deniability.

I don't know much about Check Engine Light issues. Ask your mechanic if the light had to have been on when the dealer bought the car. It's possible that the auction company (often just as shady as used car dealers) cleared the codes and they stayed clear temporarily.

Also ask, if you haven't already, how much to replace the converter. AutoZone has them from about $200 and up. With markup and labor you could be well under $1000 to replace it.

2009 Subaru Forester Catalytic Converter (autozone.com)



That question can be best answered by a phone call to the AC Air Resources Board.

California Vehicle and Emissions Warranty Periods | California Air Resources Board

To establish the burden of proof "...did something to hide it" you stated above, would this following argument meet the criteria?
- Vehicle passed smog test (according to CarFax report) at 108627 miles on 09/08/23. The cat converter must have been in the vehicle to pass the test.
-Somewhere between after passing the smog test and my short ownership the cat went missing. To me that proves the vehicle in good shape at the time it was sold to him and bad shape after he sold it.

 

[adjusterjack]

Reasonable presumption. Might hold up in court.

Get the cat replaced, get a receipt, sue the dealer in small claims court and see how it goes.

Speculation is futile.

 

[Foamback]

How did this pass SMOG (the seller's responsibility)? Seems like there's some regulatory shenanigans going on here in addition to the fraud.

Some of the OP's story doesn't make sense. Firstly, how does he know it PSEV vehicle? Subaru made both PSEV and non-PSEV cars, both are equipped with cats. Secondly, how does he know that the actual catalytic body is not present? It's buried pretty deep into the assembly.

If it passed the smog test at some point, that says it did have a cat in it, maybe not a PSEV cat. I'm not so sure the issue isn't a screwed up shop and a poor O2 sensor

 

[Redemptionman]

Some of the OP's story doesn't make sense. Firstly, how does he know it PSEV vehicle? Subaru made both PSEV and non-PSEV cars, both are equipped with cats. Secondly, how does he know that the actual catalytic body is not present? It's buried pretty deep into the assembly.

If it passed the smog test at some point, that says it did have a cat in it, maybe not a PSEV cat. I'm not so sure the issue isn't a screwed up shop and a poor O2 sensor

It is PZEV and Subaru puts PZEV badges on their vehicles that have PZEV.

 

[Foamback]

A badge doesn't prove it's PSEV, the vin does

I want to revise my previous answer, I think a vehicle could pass a smog test without a cat

 

[Redemptionman]

A badge doesn't prove it's PSEV, the vin does

I want to revise my previous answer, I think a vehicle could pass a smog test without a cat

LOL, okay now I know you don't know what your talking about.

 

[flyingron]

Carfax is meaningless. Why didn't the car have a current smog when you bought it?

 

[Zigner]

Carfax is meaningless. Why didn't the car have a current smog when you bought it?

According to post #7, it did. The SMOG is current if the test was passed within 90 days prior to the transfer.

EDIT: For reference, one can also check the SMOG status at Check a vehicle's inspection history - Bureau of Automotive Repair

EDIT AGAIN: https://codes.findlaw.com/ca/health-and-safety-code/hsc-sect-44015/ sections (e) and (f) are relevant.

 

[flyingron]

He doesn't state that he got a SMOG certificate within 90 days, just that CARFAX showed it. CARFAX is not reliable (or even actionable). But if the seller showed a SMOG cert as he was required and failed to mentioned he'd removed that cat, then that is.

 

[Zigner]

He doesn't state that he got a SMOG certificate within 90 days, just that CARFAX showed it. CARFAX is not reliable (or even actionable). But if the seller showed a SMOG cert as he was required and failed to mentioned he'd removed that cat, then that is.

He bought it from a dealer. The dealer wouldn't have shown him the SMOG cert. I also posted a location where the OP can check the state's records. Heck, even a private seller doesn't have to show it...as long as it was done, the transfer goes through. It's all electronic.

 

[Walter685]

According to post #7, it did. The SMOG is current if the test was passed within 90 days prior to the transfer.

EDIT: For reference, one can also check the SMOG status at Check a vehicle's inspection history - Bureau of Automotive Repair

EDIT AGAIN: https://codes.findlaw.com/ca/health-and-safety-code/hsc-sect-44015/ sections (e) and (f) are relevant.

I check the SMOG Status website and compare its Certificate Number and it matches the photo of the Smog Check Vehicle Inspection Report (VIR). The result is PASS and the date of inspection of 9/8 matches CarFax, VIR, and SMOG Status. Based on what I see so far the records check out.