GD-granddaughters (twins)
We have taken care of GD full time & beyond birth thru present (7yrs) Considerably less during 1st grade.
Not a legal arrangement. M moved to NC
Hearing was to seek primary custody as locos parentis.
If we sought Grandparent's status we could do nothing about relocation.
My lawyer was armed with info: facts on timing & care of GD, no financial help, anecdotes of emotional bonding, incidents of mental abuse (M to GD), detailed letter from family & others(daily 1st hand knowledge)who also attended hearing to testify.
At relocation hearing 8/22/13, judge did not allow us to be heard but scheduled us above hearing.
Lawyer was confident the judge would allow the mother to stay in NC pending our up coming hearing a month later & that the would not grant her order. But he did. Judge said "GP tend to think they are more important to children than they actually are. I see I've heard nothing to suggest you were more than that." We did not speak, enter evidence or actually become part of the case beyond requesting to intervene. M stated via the phone that we were babysitters.
The judge also wondered why we entered just 2 days before this hearing but were not allow an answer. But didn't allow us to address. Answer would have effected M & F's credibility.
Please note that due to granting order to stay in NC we were given 30 days to appeal to superior court.
This time ended just before hearing date of Sept. 27th. Our choices were:
Ask judge to reconsider/revisit relocation. (done 1 week prior to hearing)
If YES: move on to hearing (Did say yes but lawyer felt from meeting that judge was still set in his opinion)
If NO: we would need to immediately decide if to appeal to superior court or loose right to appeal forever and have upcoming hearing canceled.
If we chose to appeal the court could turn us down because we had not yet established parental rights.
If accepted the case would not go to trial for a minimum of 1 year at the very least & we would be presenting the very same case as we were about to but with much time passing weakening our case.
We did not need to choose as judge said yes but through the above discussions our lawyer did say that once the judge said yes the clock stopped on our right to appeal and that the judge had up to 120 days to reconsider. If we did not like his answer then the clock was back on to appeal.
Hearing 9/27/13 scheduled for a half day.
GD were requested to be available for questioning.
I l grandmother) was the first & only witness.
After establishing basic info (when GD first came into our care, what did parents provide, basic amount of time given)
Lawyer asked questions that were mainly leading to how we cared for & educated GD:
Feeding, hygiene, did I teach them to walk, speak well, write letters. And where we took them; museums, Washington, historical re-enactments.
He did not bring up emotional support & bonding with us & family that was a daily part of their lives or mental abuse.
Some of his questions were a perfect lead in:
Was I ever away from GD more than 7 days? No (As M had been)
When was that? Late Sept. 2013, M kept me away for over a month because she was mad at me."
Lawyer followed with "and then you saw them again?" & moved to something irrelevant
Next question should have been "why?".
Answer would have been:
"My GD confided in me, over a weekend visit, that they (6 yrs old) had been walking home from school & entering an empty home & were not supposed to tell me. They didn't like it. I was very upset but knew I could not approach my daughter so I walked 5 miles to their school to watch them walk home and watch the house until the mother came home. My husband had joined me by then and as we sat in his car my daughter passed and saw us. She phoned me and accused me of stalking and said she was sick of me planting little seeds in her children which needed to stop IF I were ever to see them again. She had some cruel words before hanging up. After that the children were enrolled in after school care at the YMCA a block away."
Numerous follow up questions would reveal a great deal on abuse & bonding.
My point, while these are mild incidents on their own they lead to a great deal of other issues deeper that parenting styles.
Space does not allow me to detail other incidents.
My lawyer had all this & more not only from me but also GD aunt & two uncles.
Time was wasted by my lawyer or our field trips. He had opening he did not take& this caused the judge to ask for a conference.
In conference the judge said that he found me to be credible. He also said that he felt I was just a grandparent who did a great deal with the children even above in taking them special places but this did not make me a parent. He saw no point in going on.
Our options:
A. Leave in our petition for primary but the judge has already decided and there is nothing else we can do. We will just be at the mercy of our daughter (M.
No mention of an appeal or continuing hearing & presenting more.
It was just reiterated down to the simplest terms that if we go back in & leave primary we are done. Judge had already decided We're just Grandparent. He will not budge on this. It was his thought process during the relocation -no evidence.. He sees no point in dragging this out.
B.
Pull the primary &seek grandparent's rights/custody.
We meet 49% BUT because of the logistics of NC that will never happen. The judge will not order her to return.
With this choice you at least walk away with some kind of visitation.
We could chose to move to NC but then in would be a fight in NC courts.
We saw no choice than to pull primary.
QUESTION:Could we have continue presenting witness etc?
Was the decision already final? Could I have made a statement?
Through next fight for GP custody could the judge, if he sees it's the best interest of the children, now order her back to PA?
Father is local
In conference shouldn't my lawyer press to hear the other witnesses offering or suggest where this all should lead?
I feel sure that had the judge heard everything the outcome would be different. I doubt that we would have gotten primary but think he would have ordered her back to PA & given us some type of joint custody.
Points should have been made to the emotional burden of the GD to have been completely & abruptly removed & cut off from family that up until 2 weeks before the move were active in their lives. We were still taking them to their baseball games, a standing breakfast date (last 4years) & they had even spent the night in our home 3 weeks prior.
Now those girls not only can't see us, they cannot talk by phone or video & they cannot talk to anyone about us at all. They have no one to confide in & no buffer to their mothers cruel words. I know they realize this is the mother's doing but at least in the past when M kept them from us on scattered times throughout the past 2 years They knew she needed us & that we would be caring for them again. Now they can understand that the law says we cannot see them. This is traumatic to a child's psyche.
ALSO OF NOTE:
Somewhere in one of the conferences through M lawyer ts was mentioned that one issue M has with us is that her boyfriend is black (we are white). The judge was given the impression that we make racial slurs & derogatory remarks about the boyfriend & that we put M down in the presence of the children. While categorically untrue & the children can say so, this was never brought up in court. Had it been, and it was expected, we had a defense that I'm confident would have shown no issue.
???--Shouldn't one immediate thought for the judge be:
Mother has been in this relationship for 4 years & continued leaving GD in our care daily & overnight. Why now?
M moved because F was seeking visitation. She did not notify him.
At the close of the hearing, after withdrawing primary, the judge looked directly at me and issued a verbal reprimand.
He stated that he hoped we would come to an agreement own and that we should not talk negatively about each other and added a comment"or talk about the boyfriend". I forget exact words. He did not say racial but I do believe there was a wording that led to believe that. I was already so upset that even though I knew at that moment that I was being "slapped on the hands" in front of everyone it was lost in my thought so bring up to my lawyer. It was brought up to me by others sitting in court & picking up on it.
First the judge decided with no input that we had no standing in relocation
At the hearing he made same decision with little input and stopped further procedures
At closing he reprimands us for actions he has no proof of.
In hindsight I now see that those questions did not show "parenting" & that if this is all there is we are wasting his time.
Lawyer also said he didn't know we were fighting to bring her back due to abuse. ????
We were very specific that that our fear was GD alone with M because of her treatment & our not being there to counter it.
That was why he had so much info on what she did to them. He then said that you can't win those cases anyway.
.....this was just after hearing.
QUESTION
Have we no recourse? Is asking for primary now lost forever?
Is there an approach for mental abuse that will help in GP partial?
Is social services an option? I feel she has borderline personality disorder.
What about my lawyer not presenting a stronger case? I feel he just gave in.
This just happened Friday September 27,2013
Is there something I should be doing now?
Thank you for for your time and patience in reading this.
We have taken care of GD full time & beyond birth thru present (7yrs) Considerably less during 1st grade.
Not a legal arrangement. M moved to NC
Hearing was to seek primary custody as locos parentis.
If we sought Grandparent's status we could do nothing about relocation.
My lawyer was armed with info: facts on timing & care of GD, no financial help, anecdotes of emotional bonding, incidents of mental abuse (M to GD), detailed letter from family & others(daily 1st hand knowledge)who also attended hearing to testify.
At relocation hearing 8/22/13, judge did not allow us to be heard but scheduled us above hearing.
Lawyer was confident the judge would allow the mother to stay in NC pending our up coming hearing a month later & that the would not grant her order. But he did. Judge said "GP tend to think they are more important to children than they actually are. I see I've heard nothing to suggest you were more than that." We did not speak, enter evidence or actually become part of the case beyond requesting to intervene. M stated via the phone that we were babysitters.
The judge also wondered why we entered just 2 days before this hearing but were not allow an answer. But didn't allow us to address. Answer would have effected M & F's credibility.
Please note that due to granting order to stay in NC we were given 30 days to appeal to superior court.
This time ended just before hearing date of Sept. 27th. Our choices were:
Ask judge to reconsider/revisit relocation. (done 1 week prior to hearing)
If YES: move on to hearing (Did say yes but lawyer felt from meeting that judge was still set in his opinion)
If NO: we would need to immediately decide if to appeal to superior court or loose right to appeal forever and have upcoming hearing canceled.
If we chose to appeal the court could turn us down because we had not yet established parental rights.
If accepted the case would not go to trial for a minimum of 1 year at the very least & we would be presenting the very same case as we were about to but with much time passing weakening our case.
We did not need to choose as judge said yes but through the above discussions our lawyer did say that once the judge said yes the clock stopped on our right to appeal and that the judge had up to 120 days to reconsider. If we did not like his answer then the clock was back on to appeal.
Hearing 9/27/13 scheduled for a half day.
GD were requested to be available for questioning.
I l grandmother) was the first & only witness.
After establishing basic info (when GD first came into our care, what did parents provide, basic amount of time given)
Lawyer asked questions that were mainly leading to how we cared for & educated GD:
Feeding, hygiene, did I teach them to walk, speak well, write letters. And where we took them; museums, Washington, historical re-enactments.
He did not bring up emotional support & bonding with us & family that was a daily part of their lives or mental abuse.
Some of his questions were a perfect lead in:
Was I ever away from GD more than 7 days? No (As M had been)
When was that? Late Sept. 2013, M kept me away for over a month because she was mad at me."
Lawyer followed with "and then you saw them again?" & moved to something irrelevant
Next question should have been "why?".
Answer would have been:
"My GD confided in me, over a weekend visit, that they (6 yrs old) had been walking home from school & entering an empty home & were not supposed to tell me. They didn't like it. I was very upset but knew I could not approach my daughter so I walked 5 miles to their school to watch them walk home and watch the house until the mother came home. My husband had joined me by then and as we sat in his car my daughter passed and saw us. She phoned me and accused me of stalking and said she was sick of me planting little seeds in her children which needed to stop IF I were ever to see them again. She had some cruel words before hanging up. After that the children were enrolled in after school care at the YMCA a block away."
Numerous follow up questions would reveal a great deal on abuse & bonding.
My point, while these are mild incidents on their own they lead to a great deal of other issues deeper that parenting styles.
Space does not allow me to detail other incidents.
My lawyer had all this & more not only from me but also GD aunt & two uncles.
Time was wasted by my lawyer or our field trips. He had opening he did not take& this caused the judge to ask for a conference.
In conference the judge said that he found me to be credible. He also said that he felt I was just a grandparent who did a great deal with the children even above in taking them special places but this did not make me a parent. He saw no point in going on.
Our options:
A. Leave in our petition for primary but the judge has already decided and there is nothing else we can do. We will just be at the mercy of our daughter (M.
No mention of an appeal or continuing hearing & presenting more.
It was just reiterated down to the simplest terms that if we go back in & leave primary we are done. Judge had already decided We're just Grandparent. He will not budge on this. It was his thought process during the relocation -no evidence.. He sees no point in dragging this out.
B.
Pull the primary &seek grandparent's rights/custody.
We meet 49% BUT because of the logistics of NC that will never happen. The judge will not order her to return.
With this choice you at least walk away with some kind of visitation.
We could chose to move to NC but then in would be a fight in NC courts.
We saw no choice than to pull primary.
QUESTION:Could we have continue presenting witness etc?
Was the decision already final? Could I have made a statement?
Through next fight for GP custody could the judge, if he sees it's the best interest of the children, now order her back to PA?
Father is local
In conference shouldn't my lawyer press to hear the other witnesses offering or suggest where this all should lead?
I feel sure that had the judge heard everything the outcome would be different. I doubt that we would have gotten primary but think he would have ordered her back to PA & given us some type of joint custody.
Points should have been made to the emotional burden of the GD to have been completely & abruptly removed & cut off from family that up until 2 weeks before the move were active in their lives. We were still taking them to their baseball games, a standing breakfast date (last 4years) & they had even spent the night in our home 3 weeks prior.
Now those girls not only can't see us, they cannot talk by phone or video & they cannot talk to anyone about us at all. They have no one to confide in & no buffer to their mothers cruel words. I know they realize this is the mother's doing but at least in the past when M kept them from us on scattered times throughout the past 2 years They knew she needed us & that we would be caring for them again. Now they can understand that the law says we cannot see them. This is traumatic to a child's psyche.
ALSO OF NOTE:
Somewhere in one of the conferences through M lawyer ts was mentioned that one issue M has with us is that her boyfriend is black (we are white). The judge was given the impression that we make racial slurs & derogatory remarks about the boyfriend & that we put M down in the presence of the children. While categorically untrue & the children can say so, this was never brought up in court. Had it been, and it was expected, we had a defense that I'm confident would have shown no issue.
???--Shouldn't one immediate thought for the judge be:
Mother has been in this relationship for 4 years & continued leaving GD in our care daily & overnight. Why now?
M moved because F was seeking visitation. She did not notify him.
At the close of the hearing, after withdrawing primary, the judge looked directly at me and issued a verbal reprimand.
He stated that he hoped we would come to an agreement own and that we should not talk negatively about each other and added a comment"or talk about the boyfriend". I forget exact words. He did not say racial but I do believe there was a wording that led to believe that. I was already so upset that even though I knew at that moment that I was being "slapped on the hands" in front of everyone it was lost in my thought so bring up to my lawyer. It was brought up to me by others sitting in court & picking up on it.
First the judge decided with no input that we had no standing in relocation
At the hearing he made same decision with little input and stopped further procedures
At closing he reprimands us for actions he has no proof of.
In hindsight I now see that those questions did not show "parenting" & that if this is all there is we are wasting his time.
Lawyer also said he didn't know we were fighting to bring her back due to abuse. ????
We were very specific that that our fear was GD alone with M because of her treatment & our not being there to counter it.
That was why he had so much info on what she did to them. He then said that you can't win those cases anyway.
.....this was just after hearing.
QUESTION
Have we no recourse? Is asking for primary now lost forever?
Is there an approach for mental abuse that will help in GP partial?
Is social services an option? I feel she has borderline personality disorder.
What about my lawyer not presenting a stronger case? I feel he just gave in.
This just happened Friday September 27,2013
Is there something I should be doing now?
Thank you for for your time and patience in reading this.
