Consumer Law, Warranties Complicated vehicle purchase from an auction not as described

[Agent86]

Jurisdiction

West Virginia

Hi all, hard to keep this short because it's a tangled web of subjects related to a vehicle purchase.

The short outline is that the item was given by the consignor to the auction house, then auctioned online through a facilitator and listed by an auctioneer at this facilitator. WHEW a mouth full.

Per advise by legal, auction licensing department, and credit card company, I reached out to the merchant for a resolution and none could be resolved.
After some discussions with the auction company and further diagnosis of the vehicle it was determined that it cannot be fixed and needs a new engine so I requested a full refund.

Actions:
I filed a credit card dispute and their investigation found in my favor. (note the merchant agreed to the credit card finding per the credit card company)
I filed a formal complaint with the auction license authority (pending conclusion)
Planning for small claims, or claims suit of some kind to recover freight, and any other material damages.

It's not that I want to sue but mostly want to know what to do with the vehicle ?

The auction got it on consignement, paid the owner, and now I have the vehicle with open title and have not registered because of the condition and uncertainty about what to do with it.

No one has contacted me or returned calls since my request for refund. I'm told I can't send it back without return approval.
I don't want to repair it because it's not settled and liability could be in the shadows.

I don't want to pay for return shipping because carrier costs would be another $1500 and I don't have return approval anyhow. I can't just drop it off there I assume.

No one seems to be able to tell me if there is a specific law that addresses this or if it actually has to go to court so a judge can direct what everyone should do.

I'm confused about how it should work exactly and what to expect.
If I fix it and a judge says to return it and possibly not give me repair costs then I don't want to repair it for nothing.

If I sue and get my freight and material costs and return it thats ok too and they should pick it up too.

If they sue or I sue the conclusion sounds like it's never going to be over until a judge decides.

Any ideas on this ? Thanks

The question requires a jurisdiction, but the item was purchased online, the facilitator is NE, the auction is WV, and I'm in MD.
It's difficult to navigate. I don't really care how it end up necessarily I just want it to end someplace and know what to expect.

I don't want to buy another truck either until this is over because of potential liability hanging over. I could end up with 2 trucks for no reason.

Sorry for the long question, thanks.

 

[Zigner]

Review your purchase agreement with the auction house.

 

[adjusterjack]

Here is a disclaimer from a car auction in Phoenix.

ALL SALES ARE FINAL. ALL ITEMS ARE SOLD 'AS-IS WHERE-IS,' WITH ALL FAULTS AND WITHOUT WARRANTIES. Catalog, web, and advertising descriptions are NOT guaranteed. _________ is NOT liable for any errors, omissions, or inaccuracies in the catalog or other written or verbal descriptions even if caused by __________'s gross negligence. Bidders are responsible for thorough inspection of items before bidding and to satisfy themselves of such matters as to suitability, marketability, completeness, year, make, model, and/or condition. IF YOU ARE UNSURE AS TO ANY MATTER, ___________ URGES YOU NOT TO BID. YOU MAY NOT SOLELY RELY ON ___________'S DESCRIPTIONS OR INFORMATION, WRITTEN OR VERBAL.

If your auction company's disclaimer looks anything like that then you are stuck with a car you shouldn't have bought in the first place.

You bought it online without inspecting it. That's on you.

 

[Agent86]

No it's not really like this. It's a live auction. Sort of more like an estate but just large construction equipment and trucks. The facilitator rules specifically says that the auction seller that sells on their platform must sell in good working condition unless otherwise stated.

Thanks all.

The auction house did not do that and totally violated the facilitators rules.

However, they can't use "as is" as a scape goat for misleading or knowingly selling an items as runs and drives knowing that it's leaking, smoking or blown up.

If they were doing a live drive through I would have seen this like most of the other auctions as the facilitator. However, they didn't do a live drive through for this auction company and it was pictures and description only.

THEN to add insult AND because it didn't run and drive, they had to use their personel and heavy equipment to push it onto a carriers trailer.

They changed the angle off approach on the trailer by pushing down in the back end and caused the exhaust to get ripped off of the truck damaging the truck and possibly could have been part of the cause of the cracked block. Dismantling the head of the engine is the only way to further confirm this cracking of the head.

So they mislead, and caused damage to the truck. I have before pictures of the sold item showing the exhaust all entacted, then after loaded on the haulers trailer it's hanging and ripped off and dragging on the trailer etc.

Sort of 2 tier problem of "not as advertised and the dealer caused damage to the truck before it was even loaded on the trailer.

They literally told me on the phone they frequently omit the fact that it doesn't start and needs to be jumped with a jump box etc. So further omissions and admissions by the auction house.

In anycase I got my credit card refund and all sales are not final if they lied. They knew it didn't run and they had to jump box it without ever saying anything.

If they sold it "as is" and unknown then I wouldn't have bid on it. However, they inflated the value by lying and saying it runs and drives without telling the full story that it doesn't start on it's own and needs a jump, smokes like it's on fire, and leaks all the fluid out.

I have no doubt that "as is" means they don't warrant the item not a protection against fraud.

I just don't know what to do with the truck.
They also didn't dispute the credit card dispute and literally agreed to the credit cards findings.
Likely their processor would have an effect on them if they get too many chargebacks etc.

However, all these details that will play out don't really answer what specific law actually addresses this and if there is any such law or if this is just up to a judge and totally subjective.

Not to mention if sales are final then I would suspect consignment is final too so they lose their sale and the truck doesn't even technically belong to them to begin with. It's consigned to sell by the actual seller who was paid by the auction house.

It's really messy all around. It doesn't sound like there is a specifically defined law regarding this except that consumer protection that regulate credit cards require a process to take place and complete.

This part happened already.
However, now the truck is in limbo and I don't expect a free truck but it looks like it's headed that way unless I file suit or they file to recover what they think they lost.

How much do they want to spend to legal up for a 12k truck that has a blown motor now confirmed.
That will cost about 15k to have a used engine swapped out to make it run.

Then I doubt I have to pay to have it shipped back, they would likely have to pick the property, but......they don't even technically own the property and I would give them the title back if they would agree to take it back.

So it's sort of all in limbo without direct laws that can point the direction or a judge I'm guessing.
I really don't know.

 

[Agent86]

Here is a disclaimer from a car auction in Phoenix.



If your auction company's disclaimer looks anything like that then you are stuck with a car you shouldn't have bought in the first place.

You bought it online without inspecting it. That's on you.

Yes, but if the auctioneer sells locally I understand these types of auctions where you visit, inspect and purchase. This is different then online sales to the whole world.

Then to add confusion the auction facilitator has rules for the auction listers.

They are suppose to specifically as stated in their sellers rules to sell in good working condition unless otherwise stated.

This is a pretty big rule to break especially when they knew it didn't start on it's own, they admitted it needed a jump box to start and they frequently do this without stating this in the listing.

The inflated the value by omitting this then stating it runs and drives as if everything was ok.
No mention of smoke, leaking fluid etc.
Missing parts this is obviouslly in violation of the facilitators rules but perhaps no illegal unless false advertising across state lines would be illegal etc.

They didn't really have any agreement other then to say we sell as-is but yet they didn't actually sell as is.

I received something other then as is as described too. And they literally damaged the item when pushing it onto the trailer because it didn't run and drive and the pushed it with heavy equipment onto the carriers trailer.

It's a messy issue all around but I got my perminent credit back to the credit card per the consumer protections requirement for credit card companies etc.

However, what about the truck ? Leave it sit forever ? File a suit for any losses or damages or extra shipping charges ?

I mean I assume I can't just send it back without a return authorization of some sort otherwise they might file for me abandoning on their property etc.

I'm lost about this conclusion other then going to court about it so they judge could decide. I just wish I knew which specific law addresses this. Even consumer protections sites say a lot but don't really specify which particular law or code talks about it. They try to give you the web version of what it is, what it should be, what you should do etc.

Thanks all.

 

[adjusterjack]

The trouble with asking "what law" (common question) is that there are so many elements to your situation that there is either no law (statute) that applies, or bits and pieces of many statutes that really won't help you.

There is also "common law" which is based on case decisions. There is tort law where somebody does you wrong and causes you monetary damages and there is contract law where somebody breaches a contract and causes you monetary damages.

Reading your post it seems like you were able to get your money back with a credit card chargeback but you still have the truck.

That tells me that you have nothing to sue for. You don't win a lawsuit without monetary damages that are directly the result of the breach or the tort, whatever it turns out to be.

If you choose to spend money on any of this, it's voluntary and you won't win a lawsuit because you already got your money back.

If you don't want to keep the truck send written notice to the auction people with a deadline date to pick it up. State your intent to dispose of it.

It's foolish to think you can throw money at this and then successfully sue for it. Not going to happen.

If you don't believe that you are welcome to consult an attorney and review your options.

 

[Tax Counsel]

I haven't read your contract with the auction company and the terms of that contract are important to what remedies you have and whether it's worth it to pursue the remedies, if any, that you have.

You made a request for a chargeback from the credit card company. The credit company agreed with your request. That does not mean, however, that the auction company can't still sue you or take the matter to arbitration. The benefit of a successful chargeback is that you have your money back and it puts the ball into the seller's hands as what to do if it doesn't agree with the chargeback outcome. Do you have anything in writing from the auction company that states it accepts the result or is there anything in the auction contract in which it states the parties have to accept the credit card issuers determination (which would be unusual). If the answer is no then the auction may still sue or compel arbitration.

The area of law that applies here is contract law. The general goal of contract law is to get the parties as close to possible to where they'd be if the contract had been carried out or, if that's not possible, then return the parties to where they were before the contract.

You want to look at the terms of the contract closely. The contract may specify which state's law applies and may require that the parties arbitrate any disputes rather than filing a lawsuit. Some arbitration agreements allow a limited exception for small claims court. Also, does the contract specify that the loser in a dispute pays the winner's legal fees?

If the auction company has explicitly agreed to the outcome to the chargeback claim, are you out any other money out this series of events. Has it demanded the return of the truck?

Note that contract provisions like the one Jack quoted from a contract in his state are not always enforceable. The state law that applies to the contract is very important regarding which provisions the courts will enforce a contract when a party to the contract intentionally omits important information with that effect that the buyer is materially misled by the claims made.

If the auction specifically agreed to accept the chargeback decision and doen't want the truck back then you are free to sell it, donate it, have a junk hauler take it off your hands, or whatever else you want to do with it. If someone will haul it away for free that may be a good resolution to the issue of what to do with the truck.

You might want to contact the consumer affairs department of the state which has the law that the contract states applies and/or the consumer affairs agency in your state. That agency may be able to help you wrap all the loose ends still hanging out there in this deal.

 

[Agent86]

I haven't read your contract with the auction company and the terms of that contract are important to what remedies you have and whether it's worth it to pursue the remedies, if any, that you have.

You made a request for a chargeback from the credit card company. The credit company agreed with your request. That does not mean, however, that the auction company can't still sue you or take the matter to arbitration. The benefit of a successful chargeback is that you have your money back and it puts the ball into the seller's hands as what to do if it doesn't agree with the chargeback outcome. Do you have anything in writing from the auction company that states it accepts the result or is there anything in the auction contract in which it states the parties have to accept the credit card issuers determination (which would be unusual). If the answer is no then the auction may still sue or compel arbitration.

The area of law that applies here is contract law. The general goal of contract law is to get the parties as close to possible to where they'd be if the contract had been carried out or, if that's not possible, then return the parties to where they were before the contract.

You want to look at the terms of the contract closely. The contract may specify which state's law applies and may require that the parties arbitrate any disputes rather than filing a lawsuit. Some arbitration agreements allow a limited exception for small claims court. Also, does the contract specify that the loser in a dispute pays the winner's legal fees?

If the auction company has explicitly agreed to the outcome to the chargeback claim, are you out any other money out this series of events. Has it demanded the return of the truck?

Note that contract provisions like the one Jack quoted from a contract in his state are not always enforceable. The state law that applies to the contract is very important regarding which provisions the courts will enforce a contract when a party to the contract intentionally omits important information with that effect that the buyer is materially misled by the claims made.

If the auction specifically agreed to accept the chargeback decision and doen't want the truck back then you are free to sell it, donate it, have a junk hauler take it off your hands, or whatever else you want to do with it. If someone will haul it away for free that may be a good resolution to the issue of what to do with the truck.

You might want to contact the consumer affairs department of the state which has the law that the contract states applies and/or the consumer affairs agency in your state. That agency may be able to help you wrap all the loose ends still hanging out there in this deal.

Thanks to all
This is what I've been tossing around too. Many overlapping themes and which law might apply if any.

There is no real contract. It is more like an estate sale sort of. They list at the facilitator online and prior to bidding you agree to these seller terms with a poppup message and have to click agree.
Most of them don't seem to add much more then the default message about taxes, titles, buyer premiums and other fees for particular items etc.

However, the written desciption is something buyers rely on for purchasing online because the whole world can bid like ebay.

They already violated the facilitators rules for the seller specifically to "sell in good working condition unless otherwise stated by the seller".

The Auction Licensing was helpful. So far it appears the auction violated the rules of their license by not providing information required on my invoice.
The Auction Licensing directed me to file the formal complaint then use this as leverage for filing any claim depending on the findings but it's not a legal proceeding just a conclusion of the formal complaint that I use for a legal filing etc.

The credit card company said to use my card statement to show the permininent credit but no formal letter would be sent because it's unwarranted when the merchant agrees to the dispute. I have no idea but they said I could take a screen shot on my phone app showing the case, investigation and completed in my favor showing in the app notice.

Yet none of this processing really helps with what to do with the truck.

I think your right about still being open for being sued if they wanted to try.
I don't know how likely that is due to the fact the description of the item as runs/drive is already inflating the value of the truck so a claim to recover whatever the judge deems the value is might be futile in the end anyhow. Yet it's still hanging over my head that it's possible.

Some legals told me to wait and if they don't contact me then keep it and do whatever. I don't like this idea either cause it's not settled exactly.

I'm told by other that after the dispute their not allow to harrass or call me for payment or recovery of the item. I'm not sure if that's even true but some lawyers have suggested this too.

This is why I want to post on the forum because it's so messy and the truck still just sits here with no conclusion.

Filing a claim seems to be the only answer, even if just to file for a full refund plus $2000 for freight hauling so that a judge can say to return the item or make the merchant accept the return and perhaps order the merchant to pickup the item etc.

I understand your post and I think this is why I'm so confused about why no specific quotes about a particular law dealing with it.

For example when I read about consumer protections it seems to be more drawn out for credit card companies that have to give the merchant a certain amount of time to respond and what happens if no response, and if they find in my favor or the merchants favor. Those things are drawn out even if no code is quoted they all seem to state the same thing for that matter.

However, after the fact I guess too many other laws and information that might make it impossible to specify a particular law that might direct what to do about it all.

Thanks

 

[Agent86]

I should say that I wish the company would contact me to return the truck and perhaps request it in writing, I have no idea why I haven't been contacted since the credit card company likely held their funds and I was given a credit back already made perminent.

Should I contact them ? I mean what if they say I should pay for the return shipping even though I'm already out $2000 for freight to get it here ?
Then I guess back to the drawingboard. I assume it's cheaper for them to forget about it since they might pay for return shipping to get a truck now confirmed to be blown up and barely worth half the original selling price if that.

However, would be nice if they just said keep it and put this to rest.
Is there a point where it's assumed to keep it without contact from them ?

I'm tired of talking about this blown up truck though, it's in my yard. It's a large commercial truck and doesn't run or drive and can't be fixed without another $17,000 in repairs and installation costs for a used engine swap.

That's what warrants a full refund with freight costs and the seller picks up the item.
Yet there has been no further contact except for the formal complaint filing by me at the Auction Licensing in that state. I should have the results of that this month sometime.
It's a pain but what else can be done.

They don't seem to want it back or resist taking it back or picking up. I really don't know since the initial request for a refund; and since no return calls from them etc.

 

[army judge]

Once a business, entity, corporation, or person gets your money; reluctance arrives. Once someone, something has your MOOLA, the entity no longer cares about you.

What does the entity suddenly care about?

Keeping their sudden, unexpected WINDFALL!!!!

Money, especially retaining UNEXPECTED MOOLA, becomes the entity's MAJOR CONCERN.

 

[Agent86]

Once a business, entity, corporation, or person gets your money; reluctance arrives. Once someone, something has your MOOLA, the entity no longer cares about you.

What does the entity suddenly care about?

Keeping their sudden, unexpected WINDFALL!!!!

Money, especially retaining UNEXPECTED MOOLA, becomes the entity's MAJOR CONCERN.


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But they don't have the money. The credit card company took it back and gave me the perminent credit.

So they have no money, won't talk and don't contact me about any return of the item.
I have the item and the money at this point and in addition the person who consigned it to the auction house got paid too.

I guess it's possible that since the auction house is pretty large and does auctions weekly then the may not even care and time is money. The effort and losses getting the truck back may be of little value to them.

However, IMO what probably should happen is that they go to the person who consigned it, and get the money from them, then no one looses any money and they pickup the item, re-consign and list it properly this time and get whatever it brings at auction like it should be to begin with and without any false advertised listings etc. etc.


Since it's still uncertain I'll probably just leave it sit their and rust until someone decides what should be done about it.

I think only a judge can tell at this point IMO.
Just seems like it should be a more clear cut route to get the truck removed so they can re-sell it or something or if they would just say to keep it if that's what the want.

However, if their not allowed to contact me for some reason after a card dispute then I guess it stays in limbo forever until a judge directs or some other actions by either party.

 

[Agent86]

Here is a disclaimer from a car auction in Phoenix.



If your auction company's disclaimer looks anything like that then you are stuck with a car you shouldn't have bought in the first place.

You bought it online without inspecting it. That's on you.

The problem with this type of contract is it may not be legal and should never be ground for complete fraud.

From this is sounds like a protection but indicates they could literally be negligent perhaps on purpose or even faudulant and oh well too bad. I doubt this is legally allowed.

For example: I auction a 1oz 24ct troy ounce of gold on the web, then send you a chocolate candy wrapped with a gold wrapper that says 1oz 24ct troy ounce of gold.

This is obviously fraud and a scam. No amount of contract disclaimer can fix that; and regardless of unknowingly sending you a chocolate candy. Whether they knew or not, or if they have disclaimers I doubt a judge would buy this idea.

Another example is you buy a truck from and auction and before you pick it up they sent it to scrap crusher by accident and when you show up they say sorry we crushed it by accident but we have a disclaimer that says you own it once paid and not responsible for anything once paid.

I say they are still responsible and likely a judge would say so too.

Although in my case, the truck wasn't crushed, but the auctioneeer indeed caused damages and this is provable.

I don't really know why they resist a refund on something like this anyhow. They could easily take it back, and take the money from the consignor and then relist what they actually have here instead of sticking me with the blown up damaged truck.

I will make it work either way, but there is no direction at this point.

Fix the truck and use it ? Maybe have a law suit against the value of the truck later ? Wait to send it back, take my damages on freight, or get paid freight either way they don't have the money and the truck is still here.

I don't really understand this or why it's like this. I sort of expected the credit card company to direct on this. Or a call from the merchant to have it picked up or something.

The freight refund is another story and even if they deny paying that I can do that in claims court but the truck still persists without any clear path on it.

I know for sure I can impound it and the original registered owner will get the impound notice for towing and storage fees. Then it goes to auction and someone else can buy it for impound item.

Yet potential law suit could still lurke against me for the merchant wanting to get paid in full or partial if anything.

Wonder how long to leave it sit here with any contact from the merchant etc. ?