Civilian101
New Member
- Jurisdiction
- Massachusetts
Hello,
Today, my friend and I went to the RMV in MA to get her a Mass I.D. card (not a driver's license and not a REAL ID, just a normal Mass I.D. card). All she currently has for a state issued photo ID is her N.Y. driver's license that expired several years ago. In order to renew her driver's license she needs to retake the written test, driver's test, eye exam, etc., so in the meantime we figured it's just easier to get a Mass I.D. since she doesn't even drive right now. If you're wondering, she moved from NY to MA a few years ago but never officially changed over her license.
We did our research online before we went to the RMV. For the proof of residency she used a recent credit card statement to her MA address, which the RMV accepted. For proof of lawful presence she used her Certificate of Birth Registration, which the RMV did not accept.
Here's my dilemma. The RMV insisted that her "Certificate of Birth Registration" is not a legal document, it's a hospital record. But, in fact, it is a legal document (I'll post pictures below) because it is not from the hospital, it is from the New York State Department of Health signed by the Registrar of Vital Statistics, and it has an official raised seal from the NY Onondaga County Department of Health.
I researched the requirements for an official document for proof of lawful presence. The requirements include a raised, embossed, impressed, or multicolored seal and a signature from the registrar. It must also include the full name of the person, the date and place of birth, the date it was filed and issued, and the parents names.
I contacted the NY State Department of Health and it will cost up to $70 to get a certified copy of her birth certificate unless she does it by snail mail, in which case it's still about $45. What I don't understand is what does this birth certificate prove that the certificate of birth doesn't already prove? They're both legally issued certifications from the government stating all the same information. In fact, on the back of her certificate of birth registration, it states "This record is proof that your child's birth was registered. Please keep it in a safe place, since it may be used as proof of age and citizenship." What is the point of having this government issued document that says it can be "used as proof of age and citizenship" if the government suddenly decides it can't be used as proof of citizenship? Am I missing something here? The lady at the RMV said "it says it may be used, that doesn't necessarily mean that it can be used". The definition of "may" is certainly ambiguous, I'd love to see how her argument holds up in court. It could mean "possible", but it could also mean "permission". I would argue that this statement is giving permission to use the document as proof of citizenship.
Here is the document:
I blacked out sensitive information. Also, you can't see the raised seal, but it is right where my fingers are touching. It is a raised circular seal with the worlds "SEAL" in the middle and "ONONDAGA COUNTY DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH" written around the outside circle.
Here is the back (a little fuzzy, and the bottom half was cutoff in the picture):
The first sentence states "Please keep it in a safe place, since it may be used as proof of age and citizenship". Further down it says the "original birth certificate is on file at the New York State Department of Health, Vital Records Section, Empire State Plaza, Albany, NY 12237" (that part was cut off in the picture) - the same department that signed and sealed the document she has! What am I missing here? I've written to the Massachusetts government to get an explanation, but in the meantime I'm curious if any of you have insight on this matter.
Has the RMV refused a legal document of citizenship? What action can people take if they're wrongfully denied, or if a government agency refused a government-issued document? I spoke with two supervisors at the RMV, neither of them acknowledged my comments about the raised seal and signature from the NY State Department of Health / Registrar of Vital Statistics, instead they just kept repeating that is says "Certificate of Birth Registration" and not "Birth Certificate" or "Certificate of Birth" ...
If this government issued document (from the NY State Department of Health that states it may be used as proof of citizenship) is not accepted, what the hell is the point of this document in the first place? And why does it state that it may be used as proof of citizenship? I know that this may not seem like a big deal compared to other people's issues posted on this site, but I simply don't understand why my friend's government issued certificate was refused.
Thank you.
Today, my friend and I went to the RMV in MA to get her a Mass I.D. card (not a driver's license and not a REAL ID, just a normal Mass I.D. card). All she currently has for a state issued photo ID is her N.Y. driver's license that expired several years ago. In order to renew her driver's license she needs to retake the written test, driver's test, eye exam, etc., so in the meantime we figured it's just easier to get a Mass I.D. since she doesn't even drive right now. If you're wondering, she moved from NY to MA a few years ago but never officially changed over her license.
We did our research online before we went to the RMV. For the proof of residency she used a recent credit card statement to her MA address, which the RMV accepted. For proof of lawful presence she used her Certificate of Birth Registration, which the RMV did not accept.
Here's my dilemma. The RMV insisted that her "Certificate of Birth Registration" is not a legal document, it's a hospital record. But, in fact, it is a legal document (I'll post pictures below) because it is not from the hospital, it is from the New York State Department of Health signed by the Registrar of Vital Statistics, and it has an official raised seal from the NY Onondaga County Department of Health.
I researched the requirements for an official document for proof of lawful presence. The requirements include a raised, embossed, impressed, or multicolored seal and a signature from the registrar. It must also include the full name of the person, the date and place of birth, the date it was filed and issued, and the parents names.
I contacted the NY State Department of Health and it will cost up to $70 to get a certified copy of her birth certificate unless she does it by snail mail, in which case it's still about $45. What I don't understand is what does this birth certificate prove that the certificate of birth doesn't already prove? They're both legally issued certifications from the government stating all the same information. In fact, on the back of her certificate of birth registration, it states "This record is proof that your child's birth was registered. Please keep it in a safe place, since it may be used as proof of age and citizenship." What is the point of having this government issued document that says it can be "used as proof of age and citizenship" if the government suddenly decides it can't be used as proof of citizenship? Am I missing something here? The lady at the RMV said "it says it may be used, that doesn't necessarily mean that it can be used". The definition of "may" is certainly ambiguous, I'd love to see how her argument holds up in court. It could mean "possible", but it could also mean "permission". I would argue that this statement is giving permission to use the document as proof of citizenship.
Here is the document:
I blacked out sensitive information. Also, you can't see the raised seal, but it is right where my fingers are touching. It is a raised circular seal with the worlds "SEAL" in the middle and "ONONDAGA COUNTY DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH" written around the outside circle.
Here is the back (a little fuzzy, and the bottom half was cutoff in the picture):
The first sentence states "Please keep it in a safe place, since it may be used as proof of age and citizenship". Further down it says the "original birth certificate is on file at the New York State Department of Health, Vital Records Section, Empire State Plaza, Albany, NY 12237" (that part was cut off in the picture) - the same department that signed and sealed the document she has! What am I missing here? I've written to the Massachusetts government to get an explanation, but in the meantime I'm curious if any of you have insight on this matter.
Has the RMV refused a legal document of citizenship? What action can people take if they're wrongfully denied, or if a government agency refused a government-issued document? I spoke with two supervisors at the RMV, neither of them acknowledged my comments about the raised seal and signature from the NY State Department of Health / Registrar of Vital Statistics, instead they just kept repeating that is says "Certificate of Birth Registration" and not "Birth Certificate" or "Certificate of Birth" ...
If this government issued document (from the NY State Department of Health that states it may be used as proof of citizenship) is not accepted, what the hell is the point of this document in the first place? And why does it state that it may be used as proof of citizenship? I know that this may not seem like a big deal compared to other people's issues posted on this site, but I simply don't understand why my friend's government issued certificate was refused.
Thank you.
