Looking to move with Navy husband

[MandyOh]

Jurisdiction

Maryland

Hello! I'm hoping to get some advice on an issue that may get drawn out in court.

Background info:
I have a 7 year old son. His father and I were married, but separated and divorced 4 years ago. I have full legal and physical custody. Dad has visitation every other weekend and one dinner night each week. I live in Maryland. Dad is from Ireland, but lives in Maryland also.

Issue:
I am getting married in December. New husband is in the Navy and is being sent to (stationed in)California for school to get his master's. He will be there for 2 years, upon which he will return to Maryland.... Forever.

Of course, I want to go with to California. This would mean bringing my son with.

What I have done so far:
I have drafted a letter of Intent to Temporarily Locate, and given it to "Dad". The letter gave details regarding the more, and imitated some terms, which are as follows...
1) No child support while we are away.
2) I will fly Kellan and myself to Maryland 4 times a year; one week each, except summer will be two weeks.
3) Uninterrupted Skype dinner dates once a week
4) The option to make up any missed time (in the form of three weekends a month) upon our return.

Dad has basically countered with, "I'll accept, if you let me have him for a month in the summer AND if I can bring him to Ireland."

Conclusion:
I am not going to allow my son out of the country at this point in time, especially without me! So, basically, "Dad" is not going to allow me to move. I will have to file with the court to get their permission to move.

So, my friends, this is where I ask for your advice! What are my options? What might a judge say? Worst case and best case? What would a judge most likely rule? Would they mandate meditation or could they give their verdict and be done with it? Since I have full custody, does Dad really have a say so on if I move? How do the terms I've set forth look? Are they reasonable? I'm going to hire a lawyer. Would this case be a simple case or lengthy case?

Thank you so very much!

Mandy

 

[army judge]

What are my options?

A minor child under a custody/visitation order can't leave the country unless he has a passport and BOTH parents agree.

You don't agree, so the kid isn't leaving the country, LEGALLY.

On the other hand, if you want to move to Timbuktu, you can go, but the kid stays.
If you want to take the kid with you, you have to go to court, convince a judge why that is a good idea, while the pappy will be arguing why its a bad idea.

Courts in one state are reluctant to allow kids to be moved to another state, unless you have very compelling reasons why moving benefits the kid.

If the kid needed specialized medical care offered in California, that isn't offered in MD; the court would probably allow it.

Taking the kid to Cali so you can be with some other dude NOT the kid's pappy, while depriving the kid's lawful pappy of normal visitation rarely happens.

I suggest you discuss ALL of this with a couple lawyers in the county where you reside in MD.

If you begin this adventure, you'll definitely need a lawyer.
This one is NOT a DIY effort.

 

[KatDini]

If moving to California is crucial to you, then I suggest you give Dad what he wants.

 

[leslie82]

Hello! I'm hoping to get some advice on an issue that may get drawn out in court.

Background info:
I have a 7 year old son. His father and I were married, but separated and divorced 4 years ago. I have full legal and physical custody. Dad has visitation every other weekend and one dinner night each week. I live in Maryland. Dad is from Ireland, but lives in Maryland also.

Issue:
I am getting married in December. New husband is in the Navy and is being sent to (stationed in)California for school to get his master's. He will be there for 2 years, upon which he will return to Maryland.... Forever.

Of course, I want to go with to California. This would mean bringing my son with.

What I have done so far:
I have drafted a letter of Intent to Temporarily Locate, and given it to "Dad". The letter gave details regarding the more, and imitated some terms, which are as follows...
1) No child support while we are away.
2) I will fly Kellan and myself to Maryland 4 times a year; one week each, except summer will be two weeks.
3) Uninterrupted Skype dinner dates once a week
4) The option to make up any missed time (in the form of three weekends a month) upon our return.

Dad has basically countered with, "I'll accept, if you let me have him for a month in the summer AND if I can bring him to Ireland."

Conclusion:
I am not going to allow my son out of the country at this point in time, especially without me! So, basically, "Dad" is not going to allow me to move. I will have to file with the court to get their permission to move.

So, my friends, this is where I ask for your advice! What are my options? What might a judge say? Worst case and best case? What would a judge most likely rule? Would they mandate meditation or could they give their verdict and be done with it? Since I have full custody, does Dad really have a say so on if I move? How do the terms I've set forth look? Are they reasonable? I'm going to hire a lawyer. Would this case be a simple case or lengthy case?

Thank you so very much!

Mandy

Why did you put "dad" in quotes? Does he make it to his visitation times? Is he active in your child's life? Pays child support? If so why would you call him "dad?"

Anyway - YES your ex has a say in if the child moves. The judge is going to look at what's in the best interest of your CHILD not you. Not Dad. What's best for the child.

I think you need to just hire a lawyer as only they can give you legal advice. Why can't your son go to Ireland with his dad? I would understand if the guy is completely unreliable and not a good influence but if he's a good dad what's the issue?

I don't think your suggestions to him are unreasonable and as much as I'd hate to be away from my daughter if her dad was a reliable and good dad I'd let him take her for a month and back to Ireland.

 

[hrforme]

sounds like a good compromise honestly. If you don't "allow", then he won't either. That works both ways. How would you feel if dad came back with leave the son in MD for 2 years, he can visit 8 times over those two years and Skype with you? Especially since you are coming back in 2 years. You are going to uproot your child twice when dad could stay stable with visits to you. You might consider how a judge would think on that.

That said, are you sure you can financially afford (1) no child support for 2 years plus (2) at least 16 plane tickets in that same time period? Especially while your new spouse in in school?

And are you sure that you can promise that you will move back to Maryland after your new husband finishes his Masters or that he won't be stationed somewhere else? Because if you promise that now and it changes, you may lose out later.

 

[zddoodah]

As an initial matter, I have to wonder if you contemplated any of this before embarking on a relationship with your fiancé. It's not like it's a great mystery that active military personnel may get transferred all over the place.

So, my friends, this is where I ask for your advice!

At the risk of you taking this the wrong way, we're not your friends. We're anonymous strangers. also, you can't obtain reliable legal advice on the internet. We can provide general information, but reliable legal advice can be obtained only from an attorney with full knowledge of the relevant facts.

What are my options?

Option #1: Agree to the father's counterproposal (which, from a completely objective point of view, seems incredibly reasonable to me).
Option #2: Make your own counterproposal to the father's counterproposal (e.g., you could offer to give custody to dad while you go to California with your fiancé and you get the limited visitation that you're offering him.).
Option #3: Take the matter to court.

What might a judge say?

Huh? A judge "might say" any number of thousands of things.

Worst case and best case?

Seems pretty obvious. Worst case: The court denies the out-of-state move altogether. Best case: The court allows the move subject to the conditions you proposed.

What would a judge most likely rule?

That's something only a local attorney who has full knowledge of all relevant facts can opine intelligently about.

Since I have full custody, does Dad really have a say so on if I move?

According to a quick google search, yes. Also, what (if anything) does your divorce decree say about the custodial parent moving out of state with the child?

Would this case be a simple case or lengthy case?

Define "simple" and "lengthy." If you're asking whether this can be wrapped up before December, I doubt it, but only a local practitioner will know for sure.

 

[hrforme]

another question - why can't spouse move without you (as if he were deployed and you were not going along) and have him fly back to see you 4 times a year?

 

[MandyOh]

If moving to California is crucial to you, then I suggest you give Dad what he wants.

Dad may not come back with the child, so his sole care giver, I see it as an irresponsible choice. A thousand times over, I'd rather stay in MD than run the risk of something happening to my child.

 

[MandyOh]

A minor child under a custody/visitation order can't leave the country unless he has a passport and BOTH parents agree.

You don't agree, so the kid isn't leaving the country, LEGALLY.

On the other hand, if you want to move to Timbuktu, you can go, but the kid stays.
If you want to take the kid with you, you have to go to court, convince a judge why that is a good idea, while the pappy will be arguing why its a bad idea.

Courts in one state are reluctant to allow kids to be moved to another state, unless you have very compelling reasons why moving benefits the kid.

If the kid needed specialized medical care offered in California, that isn't offered in MD; the court would probably allow it.

Taking the kid to Cali so you can be with some other dude NOT the kid's pappy, while depriving the kid's lawful pappy of normal visitation rarely happens.

I suggest you discuss ALL of this with a couple lawyers in the county where you reside in MD.

If you begin this adventure, you'll definitely need a lawyer.
This one is NOT a DIY effort.

hank you for taking the time to reply.

I didn't want to go into drama details about how uninvolved the father is, including when child is with him for visitation. That will be something I will discuss with a lawyer. I suppose if I went into detail that way, my post would have seemed a bit more logical, as to why I'm okay with moving my child.

I do understand I can move anywhere I want without my child, but he is an extension of me, so that's not even an option.

I also am well aware that nobody can ever make me allow my son to leave the country. I think it would be completely irresponsible to allow my son to go, for a plethora of GOOD reasons. I told the dad I wouldaccompany my son in 5 years on a trip to Ireland. He wants to take him alone, and he wants it NOW. In the four years that we have been apart, dad has never had the child for more than 3 days. I offered him plenty of opportunities, but dad is uninterested. Now he wants to take him out of the country for a week? Over my dead body.

That's also how I feel about moving to CA without my son... Over my dead body.

I think moving to CA with my new husband would be a great opportunity for my son for so many reasons.Schools, healthcare, extra curricular activities, etc.

Of course, if a judge says no, I wouldn't go.

I guess, my reasoning for poisoning to this forum was to find out if it's possible to be allowed to go, or is it a worthless cause.

I appreciated the DIY comment.

 

[MandyOh]

Why did you put "dad" in quotes? Does he make it to his visitation times? Is he active in your child's life? Pays child support? If so why would you call him "dad?"

Anyway - YES your ex has a say in if the child moves. The judge is going to look at what's in the best interest of your CHILD not you. Not Dad. What's best for the child.

I think you need to just hire a lawyer as only they can give you legal advice. Why can't your son go to Ireland with his dad? I would understand if the guy is completely unreliable and not a good influence but if he's a good dad what's the issue?

I don't think your suggestions to him are unreasonable and as much as I'd hate to be away from my daughter if her dad was a reliable and good dad I'd let him take her for a month and back to Ireland.

I appreciate your honesty.

I suppose Dad didn't need to be in quotes. I explained in my post that he was my ex husband, but didn't want to refer to him as "my ex". Since you ask, he is a very sub par, hands off dad, but that is not why I put it in quotes.

I don't want him out of the country for many reasons, #1 being he may not come back, #2 being in over 4 years, his dad has never taken him for more than 3 days at a time (totally by the dad's choice). #3 What if something happens to him over there? Car accident or other. I'm all the way over here. I couldn't afford medical bills from another country, multiple flights, lodging, etc. I have other reasons, but those are the top.

He counter offered with he would be okay with me moving if he could have him for a month in the summer AND if I'd let my son go to Ireland. Letting my son be on the other side of the country for a month wouldn't be my favorite, but I'd consider. However, a trip to Ireland is out of the question!

 

[MandyOh]

sounds like a good compromise honestly. If you don't "allow", then he won't either. That works both ways. How would you feel if dad came back with leave the son in MD for 2 years, he can visit 8 times over those two years and Skype with you? Especially since you are coming back in 2 years. You are going to uproot your child twice when dad could stay stable with visits to you. You might consider how a judge would think on that.

That said, are you sure you can financially afford (1) no child support for 2 years plus (2) at least 16 plane tickets in that same time period? Especially while your new spouse in in school?

And are you sure that you can promise that you will move back to Maryland after your new husband finishes his Masters or that he won't be stationed somewhere else? Because if you promise that now and it changes, you may lose out later.

He has counter offered with... he will allow me to move if I change the summer visitation to a month and in that month he wants to take our son to Ireland. Doesn't the fact that he is okay with me taking our son count for something?

I gave him all of my reasonings for not allowing him to take our son to Ireland. I told him the best I could do is accompanying my son in five years. He is not okay with that he wants to take him now. I told him if he wants my son to go now he has to pay my way for me to accompany my son now. He's refused. So I told him he will have to wait about five years four me to afford that. It would all be in writing. I also told him that if this gets drawn out into a long court battle that I will not have the means to bring my son to Ireland in five years. So, the is okay with us moving, but has to take son now to Ireland? Something is very off!

Yes I would be able to afford the flights andI would also come back in two years. That would all be in court documents. I would have to legally return in two years, even if suppose did not.

I am trying to be so fair... The fairest one can be in this situation.

 

[MandyOh]

As an initial matter, I have to wonder if you contemplated any of this before embarking on a relationship with your fiancé. It's not like it's a great mystery that active military personnel may get transferred all over the place.



At the risk of you taking this the wrong way, we're not your friends. We're anonymous strangers. also, you can't obtain reliable legal advice on the internet. We can provide general information, but reliable legal advice can be obtained only from an attorney with full knowledge of the relevant facts.



Option #1: Agree to the father's counterproposal (which, from a completely objective point of view, seems incredibly reasonable to me).
Option #2: Make your own counterproposal to the father's counterproposal (e.g., you could offer to give custody to dad while you go to California with your fiancé and you get the limited visitation that you're offering him.).
Option #3: Take the matter to court.



Huh? A judge "might say" any number of thousands of things.



Seems pretty obvious. Worst case: The court denies the out-of-state move altogether. Best case: The court allows the move subject to the conditions you proposed.



That's something only a local attorney who has full knowledge of all relevant facts can opine intelligently about.



According to a quick google search, yes. Also, what (if anything) does your divorce decree say about the custodial parent moving out of state with the child?



Define "simple" and "lengthy." If you're asking whether this can be wrapped up before December, I doubt it, but only a local practitioner will know for sure.

I appreciate your thoughts. I will try to respond to everything...

Yes, as a child of military patents, I am all too familiar with the relocation aspect. My fiancee has a unique job where that is not part of his career. He was presented with the opportunity to upgrade his bachelor's to a master's and return. Plus, he retires in 5 years... So even IF (but it won't happen) he were to be moved, he'd be done 3 years after school.

As far as the friends comment, I know you guys are not my literal friends. Don't worry, I'm not a sucker who believes everything they read. As a medical student, I've learned how to be really wise and efficient when it comes to research. I was able to do everything properly (without a lawyer) to get my fiance into the US to marry. No easy feat. Also, was able to execute a messy divorce without a lawyer. Medical students are very resourceful. However, I am not a legal expert, and I do know what is beyond my limits. This issue is beyond my limits. I will be hiring a lawyer. I just was hoping to get some advice on what to expect. I'm not looking to a forum to gain absolute knowledge on my case. I will take all advice with a grain of sand.

I didn't want to bog down the initial post with too many details, but if I did, perhaps you might understand why I think his travel request is inappropriate. That is my fault. If you are curious, I touched on it in some of my other replies. I do believe it will result in option c, I just hate not knowing, you know?

In the divorce agreement, it says if either party moves more than 60 miles, the other must be notified 60 days prior. I have already completed that through certified mail, and an in person meeting. It does not restrict moves. However, in the divorce agreement, it states his visitation... Every other weekend and one dinner a week. Also every other birthday and Christmas. (That's all he wanted... He was uninterested in more) I understand I can't break the visitation without his consent. That is where I will hire a lawyer to help with specifics.

I am not looking for specifics here.... Just a ballpark idea of probable outcomes. I would like to have an idea of what is probable, and what else could happen. I don't think that's unrealistic. I'm not an expert, and it may actually be unrealistic, in which case that would be good to know, too.

I agree, a lawyer is the person I need to ultimately consult.

 

[Disabled Vet]

Remember.... You nor anyone else can make a child. BOTH parents have rights. This will all have to be worked out in a court. At which time the father will ask the court for permission to take the child for the month to Ireland as well. This choice of yours will open a whole new can of worms per say. Your child needs BOTH parents to grow up in life. Without all the bs that comes with divorced parents.

 

[MandyOh]

Remember.... You nor anyone else can make a child. BOTH parents have rights. This will all have to be worked out in a court. At which time the father will ask the court for permission to take the child for the month to Ireland as well. This choice of yours will open a whole new can of worms per say. Your child needs BOTH parents to grow up in life. Without all the bs that comes with divorced parents.

I fully agree that my child, any child, needs BOTH parents. 100%! I am not looking to destroy their relationship or break anything up. With my "plan", the father would end up having more time with his child than he does now, AND it will just be for two years. I have raised this child, on my OWN, for FOUR years... While dad gets to plop the child in front of the TV every other weekend... Dad doesn't contact his son when it is not his time, and they go almost 3 weeks with no contact sometimes. My son would have a truly wonderful opportunity to move to California and have all those experiences! I've lived there 3 times, myself, so I am aware of all there is to offer. It is highly unfair, in my opinion, that he gets to hold this (irresponsible) trip to Ireland over my head. I'd rather not move than have my son's safety in danger. My son is my #1 responsibility.

And no, a court cannot grant permission to his father to take his son out of the country without my consent.

 

[hrforme]

And you get to hold moving across the country over his head.... unfortunately you share this child with someone else who you chose to be the father of your child.

In the end if you two can't come to an agreement the court will order one ... and you may not like the outcome either way. In the end I doubt you will get 100% of what you are asking

 

[ElleMD]

You don't say where in MD you are, and that can vary the odds of a particular outcome. We also don't know how Dad will present in court and why he wants to take the child to Ireland. You do need to be realistic about a few things.

1. This is the child's father and he retains the same legal rights as far as where the child goes that you do. Being the custodial parent does not give you additional weight when it comes to what the child does when he is with his father. The court is also not going to care that he *could* have asked for more time with the child, or that he lets the kid watch TV during visitation. Unless you have a very specific and articulate reason for the child not visiting Ireland with his father, bank on this being approved by the court. That goes double if the reason for the trip is to visit family. Vague worries that "something could happen", or assumptions that the father won't return with the child, when there is nothing to indicate that is likely, aren't going to get you anywhere. On the one hand you claim this guy is disinterested, then on the other claim he might try to keep the child indefinitely. Surely you can see the logical issues with that.

2. His time with his father is his time with his father. You should not expect to be permitted to tag along, especially on the father's dime. Your promises to take the child to Ireland in 5 years have no bearing on his father taking him there in the summer.

3. Do not expect the court to treat a fiance's relocation the same as a spouse and established stepparent. "Fiance" has no legal weight and engagements fall through all the time. Courts in MD have been known to favor stability. You might consider CA to be paradise, but for a kid it means a new school, new friends, unfamiliar surroundings, less one on one time with his other parent, etc. Not that all moves are bad and one would never be granted over the objection of the other parent, but it is far from a slam dunk. It is entirely likely that the judge will see additional time with Dad as a positive in a stable environment and visits with you to be sufficient to experience the wonders of CA. If 2 years is truely no big deal, then surely you can be the one to take the hit since relocating with your fiance is entirely voluntary.