******Double Dipping******

[kdlong]

I realize the state of IA is trying to balance the budget, but this is rediculous and rather peculiar.

My sons car which was parked in front of our house was citated 2 different tickets, having 2 different dates, yet they were issued on the same day for expired tags.

One was dated 11/14/09 and the other 11/20/09, yet they were both issued on the same day by being put under his winshield wipers.

What's also intersting is the ticket numbers are only one digit in difference. Which also backs up my belief that they were both wrote out at the same time, one after another, yet they were dated 6 days a part.

Normally when your given a citation regardless of method of how you recieve it, don't you normally recieve it the same day? And isn't it unusual to recive two tickets, dated 6 days a part issued at the same time?

Any thoughts?

 

[jharris352]

Yes it is unusual. Some of the police officers here might have some insight into this. From an attorney's point of view I would think you can beat one of the two tickets. Here in GA you can only be written subsequent tickets for expired tags on separate calendar days. So a cop can't follow you down the road and right you a ticket every hour!

That having been said, your argument that they are sequential tickets should be enough to get you out of one of them. Plead not guilty, tell the Judge your story, and show that the tickets are sequential.

 

[mightymoose]

If you bring up this discrepancy in court you can easily have one of the citations dismissed. When given a citation you need to be given an opportunity to correct the problem. Imagine the same scenario but six months later, and all at once you got 20 tickets for various dates during that time. It is absurd. Had you been given the initial citation you would have had opportunity to fix the problem and avoid the other 19 citations.
I can't explain why it happened, and the court probably can't either.
You will be on the hook for one of them though... apparently the car WAS illegally parked with expired tags. Park it in the driveway (if you have one) instead of on the street, otherwise get the tags current.

 

[CdwJava]

I don't know how it works in Iowa, but this may not go to a court - it may be a civil issue, or a violation that is heard by a local body of some kind (such as it is in CA).

Frankly, if one of my officers did this - fraudulently posted a date on a citation like this - I would dismiss both citations, silently pray the person does not go to the press, bring the officer up for discipline, and likely recommend termination for the falsification of records. If this could be verified, that employee (be it sworn officer or non-sworn parking enforcement personnel) should be terminated at the least, prosecuted at the most.

 

[kdlong]

Yes it is unusual. Some of the police officers here might have some insight into this. From an attorney's point of view I would think you can beat one of the two tickets. Here in GA you can only be written subsequent tickets for expired tags on separate calendar days. So a cop can't follow you down the road and right you a ticket every hour!

That having been said, your argument that they are sequential tickets should be enough to get you out of one of them. Plead not guilty, tell the Judge your story, and show that the tickets are sequential.

I appreciate the feedback. That's the same law here in IA, as to where you can only be citated once in a 24hr period for the same incident, in this case, expired tags.

I had called and spoke with someone at the City Clerks office questioning this and got absolutely nowhere. The gal I spoke with said "well it looks like they are 2 seperate tickets as they have 2 different dates on them." I thought I was speaking with Einstein! They couldn't understand, or didn't want to understand my point that they were BOTH issues on the same day and I knew they had 2 different dates on them.

Furthermore, she wen't on to say that the master copies appeared to be written in 2 different colors indicating they were wrote at 2 different times........Are you kidding me??? I sat there from my home office watching the officer pull up, sit in his car for about 15 minutes, then get out and place the tickets under the wipers on my sons car

 

[kdlong]

If you bring up this discrepancy in court you can easily have one of the citations dismissed. When given a citation you need to be given an opportunity to correct the problem. Imagine the same scenario but six months later, and all at once you got 20 tickets for various dates during that time. It is absurd. Had you been given the initial citation you would have had opportunity to fix the problem and avoid the other 19 citations.
I can't explain why it happened, and the court probably can't either.
You will be on the hook for one of them though... apparently the car WAS illegally parked with expired tags. Park it in the driveway (if you have one) instead of on the street, otherwise get the tags current.

I appreciate the feedback! Great point. The car has since been taken care of. I have no problem paying for one of them, but that's the point, just paying for one.

 

[kdlong]

I don't know how it works in Iowa, but this may not go to a court - it may be a civil issue, or a violation that is heard by a local body of some kind (such as it is in CA).

Frankly, if one of my officers did this - fraudulently posted a date on a citation like this - I would dismiss both citations, silently pray the person does not go to the press, bring the officer up for discipline, and likely recommend termination for the falsification of records. If this could be verified, that employee (be it sworn officer or non-sworn parking enforcement personnel) should be terminated at the least, prosecuted at the most.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and insight! Perhaps you could enlighten me to what I can proactively do with this. There is no court date appended to these tickets. It's a simple non-moving violation ticket saying failure to pay this ticket could result in collection, state income tax being withheld, etc...including being subject to having the vehicle towed.

 

[CdwJava]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and insight! Perhaps you could enlighten me to what I can proactively do with this. There is no court date appended to these tickets. It's a simple non-moving violation ticket saying failure to pay this ticket could result in collection, state income tax being withheld, etc...including being subject to having the vehicle towed.

It sounds like these are handled administratively. The first step might be to challenge the citations using whatever procedure is on the citation or that you can find on a city website.

The second thing I would do is bring this to the attention of someone in authority at the parking or law enforcement agency who employs the person who wrote the parking ticket. If these were, indeed, written the same day with two separate dates, this is something that I as an administrator would want to know about! If my people are making crud up, they leave me and my agency open to potential litigation, and they are acting in a way that is unworthy of the public trust. There would be no excuse for writing two dates 6 days apart and placing them both at the same time. I can only suppose that he figured the car would remain there and decided that if he did that no one would notice. In any event, the administration needs to know. And, like I said, if it were me, I would be embarrassed, mortified, and would likely dismiss the citation the moment I could verify your suspicions (as they would also be mine).

 

[kdlong]

It sounds like these are handled administratively. The first step might be to challenge the citations using whatever procedure is on the citation or that you can find on a city website.

The second thing I would do is bring this to the attention of someone in authority at the parking or law enforcement agency who employs the person who wrote the parking ticket. If these were, indeed, written the same day with two separate dates, this is something that I as an administrator would want to know about! If my people are making crud up, they leave me and my agency open to potential litigation, and they are acting in a way that is unworthy of the public trust. There would be no excuse for writing two dates 6 days apart and placing them both at the same time. I can only suppose that he figured the car would remain there and decided that if he did that no one would notice. In any event, the administration needs to know. And, like I said, if it were me, I would be embarrassed, mortified, and would likely dismiss the citation the moment I could verify your suspicions (as they would also be mine).

Thank you for your candid thoughts! Not to "beat a dead horse" here, perhaps you could give me your thoughts on one other thing here...

Let's suppose by chance there was one ticket issued on 11/14 and it went un-noticed for 6 days until the second one was issued on 11/20. (Keep in mind these tickets were placed under my son's windshield wipers where the car was parked right in front of our house so I really doubt this was the scenario, but anything is possible right? But let's pretend it was) The ticket issued on 11/14 had a ticket #7083046 and the one issued on 11/20 had a ticket #7083047. As you can see that they were wrote up one after the other....what are the remote chances that no other ticket was written from the officers log book in that 6 day span when supposidly one ticket was issued on 11/14 and the other on 11/20? I'm guessing not to likely!?

Furthermore, I had called and spoke with someone at the City Clerks office questioning this and got absolutely nowhere. The gal I spoke with said "well it looks like they are 2 seperate tickets as they have 2 different dates on them." I thought I was speaking with Einstein! They couldn't understand, or didn't want to understand my point that they were BOTH issues on the same day and I knew they had 2 different dates on them.

Furthermore, she wen't on to say that the master copies appeared to be written in 2 different colors indicating they were wrote at 2 different times........Are you kidding me??? I sat there from my home office watching the officer pull up, sit in his car for about 15 minutes, then get out and place the tickets under the wipers on my sons car.

Thanks

 

[CdwJava]

Thank you for your candid thoughts! Not to "beat a dead horse" here, perhaps you could give me your thoughts on one other thing here...

Let's suppose by chance there was one ticket issued on 11/14 and it went un-noticed for 6 days until the second one was issued on 11/20. (Keep in mind these tickets were placed under my son's windshield wipers where the car was parked right in front of our house so I really doubt this was the scenario, but anything is possible right? But let's pretend it was) The ticket issued on 11/14 had a ticket #7083046 and the one issued on 11/20 had a ticket #7083047. As you can see that they were wrote up one after the other....what are the remote chances that no other ticket was written from the officers log book in that 6 day span when supposidly one ticket was issued on 11/14 and the other on 11/20? I'm guessing not to likely!?

Furthermore, I had called and spoke with someone at the City Clerks office questioning this and got absolutely nowhere. The gal I spoke with said "well it looks like they are 2 seperate tickets as they have 2 different dates on them." I thought I was speaking with Einstein! They couldn't understand, or didn't want to understand my point that they were BOTH issues on the same day and I knew they had 2 different dates on them.

Furthermore, she wen't on to say that the master copies appeared to be written in 2 different colors indicating they were wrote at 2 different times........Are you kidding me??? I sat there from my home office watching the officer pull up, sit in his car for about 15 minutes, then get out and place the tickets under the wipers on my sons car.

Thanks

The only think that might make sense here is if the officer or parking enforcement person may have had good cause to believe that the vehicle had been parked unlawfully on the previous date and decided to issue a citation on THIS date (assuming the 20th) for the previous date as well. Unorthodox, and in my mind, improper, but probably not unlawful in any way so long as procedure is followed and the officer can articulate his reasons.

I would not be satisfied with a conversation with some clerk on the phone, I would go through the appeals process for the citations AND make an appointment to speak with someone in authority at the agency that employs the officer to explain the potential problem. If the officer did play fast and loose, he or she is a huge liability to the agency.

 

[mightymoose]

No, predating a citation would not hold up. You would need to be given opportunity to correct the violation before the second citation could issue.

If the citation was issued by someone that strictly does traffic/parking enforcement, then the sequential numbers really do suggest they were written at the same time. ALso, if one was there longer then it should appear more weathered.

On the administrative side, had a citation been written a week prior then it would have been processed in the office sooner than the more recent one. The citations will likely have been entered into the computers on different dates. That is something they can look in to. If they were entered on the same date at the same time then it supports your argument that they were issued at the same time.

The citation would have instructions for how to dispute it- stay in contact with the court and follow the procedure. Hopefully you can get a chance to confront the person that issued the citation and see what kind of answer comes out.