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Chauvin Sentencing

Discussion in 'Other Legal Issues' started by flyingron, Jun 25, 2021.

  1. justblue

    justblue Well-Known Member

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    You should study it harder. Your vile posting shows you haven't learned Our Lords teachings.
     
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  2. Redemptionman

    Redemptionman Active Member

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    Its nice to know that you consider them vile teachings, I know where I will be going when I die.

    How about you?

    I am done giving the blues to the blue on here, what happened to GF was wrong and should not have occured. Chavin got what he deserved regardless of how many felony convictions Mr. Floyd had. I wish it would apply universally to all races in instances where excessive force is used.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2021
  3. stealthy1

    stealthy1 Active Member

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    I doubt any of us really know.
     
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  4. justblue

    justblue Well-Known Member

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    ahahahh...I said your postings were vile. Learn to read. And I'm sure you will go where all do that pervert the word of God and His Son.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2021
  5. cbg

    cbg Super Moderator

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    Good work, Redemptionman. You've finished reading Leviticus. How about you give the New Testament a try? Say the book of John?
     
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  6. Redemptionman

    Redemptionman Active Member

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    Is this what they teach you all, how do you feel about critical race theory? How about Antifa, BLM and the others? It is evident nothing is changing your minds, so ban and cancel everything.
     
  7. Tax Counsel

    Tax Counsel Well-Known Member

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    I find it frankly a bit disturbing that you entertain the idea that this whole thing was staged. You really think George Floyd really said "hey, yeah, let's stage an event with a cop that will get me killed for some national attention"? That's pretty outlandish. You'd have to be a real cop apologist to advance that line.

    Chauvin got carried away in the moment and was unwilling to see, or just didn't care, about the harm he was causing. How hard is that to understand?


    George Floyd was being arrested at the time on suspicion of passing a $20 counterfeit bill. We don't know whether, in fact, he was guilty of that since he was never charged and convicted. But even assuming he did it, that is not a major crime and certainly nothing violent. Passing a fake $20 bill doesn't come anywhere close to justifying what Chauvin did to him. One wrong doesn't justify another, even greater wrong. And would Floyd have been treated that way had he been White? Probably not, hence the reason Chauvin is the very picture of cop racial bias and abuse here.

    Trying to blame Floyd for his death in this instance just comes across as White supremacy in its ugliest form. He may not have been an angel, but he surely didn't deserve what Chauvin did to him. So determined a jury who heard all the evidence in the case.

    Surely you understand that not all cops are as pure as the driven snow, right?
     
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  8. Tax Counsel

    Tax Counsel Well-Known Member

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    So did I. And based on that teaching, what Chauvin did was clearly wrong. My teaching wasn't that it's only wrong if a White person is the victim. What Chauvin did was clearly wrong. It doesn't justify whatever wrongs Floyd committed. Had Chauvin done his job correctly I'd have had no problem with Floyd having to answer for the charge of passing the $20 counterfeit. Let him face the consequences if the charges are proven.

    All our laws are not written based on the Bible and indeed in many courts in this country today the Bible is not used anymore for swearing in witnesses or otherwise referred to because of that pesky thing called the First Amendment that guarantees our government not favor any particular religion. And that's a good thing. Some our earliest immigrants came to these shores to escape religious persecution, after all.

    But even in the Bible, where it quotes from an old Babylonian saying regarding an eye for an eye shows that Chauvin was in the wrong. Even if he was entitled to dish out punishment himself for crimes (and of course in our system he isn't) imposing the death penalty for passing a fake $20 bill far exceeds an eye for an eye. Under that ancient standard, the appropriate punishment would fining him $20, a penalty much less than our law imposes.
     
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  9. Redemptionman

    Redemptionman Active Member

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    I am sorry just got back from one of my favorite owned restaurants which is owned by generations of black people so it is a Black Owned Restaurant, I have known them my whole life and hugged them and they served us one of the best meals we have had this month. Paid for it and told them we would see them again soon.

    George Floyd is a criminal with a long and felonious history. What the officer did in his case was wrong but it was only the back lash that led to them getting a multi million dollar settlement. Maybe Mr. Floyd and his case should set precedent. I do not know but I do know that there is no changing people like yours mind so why argue about it. You believe what you believe and you have the right to believe that. I pray everyday for people like you to see beyond race and what the media expects you to hate each other. You are just being manipulated and driven to a decision that America is a racist country, derived of racist people, and every one must be a racist because the media told me they are and they show me every day how black people are mistreated. When it is you who are being mistreated. Guess the liberal elites who are causing all this bull crap can not call it genocide as long as they get white people to kill other white people due to their faith or political beliefs.

    Whatever makes you feel better at night, I would not associate with a Mr. Floyd because he is a drug using, felonious criminal with a rap sheet a mile long. Unlike you and what you are told I judge people based upon their content of their character and not the color of their skin. I see not one of you all answered the Critical Race Theory question.
     
  10. Tax Counsel

    Tax Counsel Well-Known Member

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    So you are saying that the city and Chauvin should not have been accountable for what you admit was Chauvin's wrong behavior? Without that "backlash" as you put it, that's likely what would have happened. Look at Chauvin's own history. He was hardly the model cop. He had a history of complaints of abusive behavior that the department just blew off.

    If it sets a precedent that cops will be held to account when they do wrong, then that's a good thing. Do you not agree that when cops screw up they should be held to account? Or do you think cops are above the law?

    I'll say the same for you.

    People "like me" huh? You truly have no idea what kind of person I am or what I believe, yet you are quick to lump into some category of mislead liberals in your mind. That's how biases start. Just for starters, I am no liberal. Much of what I believe would generally be considered conservative. As a Christian, I take to heart the following above all else:

    Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

    Matthew 37-40, NIV (Bolding added). All people are our neighbors — Black, White, Brown, and every other skin tone out there. Too many people who profess to be Christians today seem to have lost sight of these two greatest commandments. If we love all our neighbors as we do ourselves then it follows that none of our neighbors should be discriminated against because of the skin color that God himself gave them.


    I wouldn't associate with a criminal either. But I also recognize that he didn't deserve what Chauvin did to him. Can't you admit that with out a "but" statement after trying to qualify it, as though to defend Chauvin and the city? Chauvin killed a man unnecessarily Does that not upset you? If it doesn't, then I wonder about your level of empathy for others.

    I'll accept that since I don't know — and won't presume I do know — what your character is. Unlike you, who seemingly is quite willing to assume negative things about me without knowing much about me. Again, that's the root of bias.

    My thoughts are that the term has been overly politicized. I also think that people have a wide range of views over what that term actually means. I believe that in terms what we teach our kids in school we should teach accurate, complete history — we should not omit the parts of our history that we don't like to see. Thus, we should include it all; the good, the bad, and the ugly. We can learn from our mistakes, but only if we learn about those mistakes in the first place. The U.S. is a great country in many ways, but it also far from perfect. Our founders recognized from the start it was not perfect and would need improving in the years to come. They used the phrase in the Constitution "a more perfect union". They saw the Constitution as a step towards the ideals expressed in the Declaration of Independence and the Preamble to the Constitution. One of those ideals is that "all men are created equal", one that was clearly not met when the nation was founded considering that nearly all Black persons in the country were slaves. We should not ignore that history or sugarcoat just how oppressive slavery was. Nor should we ignore or minimize our history of other racial injustices, like Jim Crow laws, legal segregation, and the like, some of which were still going on when I was born. That legacy of racism is not so far off in the past as some — you perhaps among them — might like to believe.

    What some seem to think critical race theory is is attacking all white people living today for that history of racism and the racism that still exists today. That's not what the term was meant to mean by those who first coined it. But I'll agree that what we should not be teaching kids is that all White people are racists, that the White race is to blame for all the ills of society, or any of those sorts of things that some people seem to fear will be taught. The thing is, I don't see all that many people advocating that sort of thing is what should be taught.

    In an effort to reach some common ground, which I think is always a good thing to try to do when discussing disagreements, you said before:


    And I totally agree with that. Which is why I found it strange that you then seemed to go on as though defending what Chauvin did, as though somehow Floyd's criminal history had any bearing on whether what Chauvin did was wrong. You don't have to like Floyd to understand that he was killed without just cause. You don't have to admire him to empathize with the pain and fear he must have felt as his life was slipping away during those nine minutes.

    Certainly we should be addressing ALL cases of excessive force by cops. Today too few cops face the consequences of use of excessive force, regardless of the race of the victim.

    But Blacks and minorities are killed and injured by cops at rates much higher than White people. The statistics clearly bear that out, as you acknowledged earlier. We still do have a race problem in our justice system in this country. Not all White people are racist. But clearly some are. We've seen plenty of examples of that in just the last year. So we have a lot of work to do to eliminate, as much as possible, that racism in this country.

    The U.S. is, on the whole, a great country. But it is far from perfect, too. We should never stop striving in our efforts to make this a more perfect union.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2021
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  11. Redemptionman

    Redemptionman Active Member

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    Those are well laid out and thoughtful posts, unconscious bias is a part of any race as it is human nature to want to stick to your own kind or "birds of a feather" if you will. What CRT does is takes into effect only white people are racists and while giving the party of a minority race a free pass as to their own bias behavior.

    I see it as a double standard as these incidents will point out, you will never hear about these incidents on the national level because the victims are white:

    Protesters gather for third night in a row after teen was shot and killed by Lonoke County Deputy | KLRT - FOX16.com

    Police officer who killed Zachary Hammond fired a year after shooting

    Are their lives any less important than George Floyd? If the law applies universally then they should not be.

    As for the other material, unarmed white people are still killed more than unarmed black people. I attribute it to training, type of people who become officers, or ultimately a wrong decision. The officers who do these civil right violations should be held accountable.

    Maybe I jumped to conclusions since you stated in previous posts that the constitution and 2nd amendment are problematic which led to a bias in determining that you are left leaning. Again, that was an assumption based upon previous posts.

    I will say this those who eliminate history or want to re write it are bound to repeat it. I have voted for democrat president in the past but like Reagan famously said "I didn't leave the democratic party the democratic party left me." Also Lincoln was a Republican.
     
  12. Tax Counsel

    Tax Counsel Well-Known Member

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    CRT, when properly applied, doesn't give anyone a free pass on racism. CRT focuses not on individual racism, e.g. the interactions of two people, but rather on those things that have impacted systemic racism — where the very rules (formal and informal) of society are stacked against a particular race or races. Since in the United States the rules have never really been stacked against White people you don't see racism against Whites reflected in CRT. It's hard for a lot of White people to accept that there are a lot of ways in which things are structured that work against minorities because White people aren't the ones adversely affected by it. And it's just human nature that if we don't experience it ourselves, if we don't see it, that it must not exist. CRT is a way of bringing to light those systemic problems. So even though many — perhaps most — White people today are not consciously racist we still have to understand that parts of our society are still structured in ways that disadvantage minorities.

    I don't see it that way. You can point to a number of deaths of White people at the hands of cops who didn't make national news. But you can also point to a number of minority deaths at the hands of cops that don't make national news. Only a handful of deaths at the hands of cops — regardless of race — bubble up to the national consciousness. The reason is that it happens so often that we are not really shocked by it; most of them are not unusual enough to be newsworthy. We would not have heard about Floyd but for the unusual fact that there was clear video showing every second of what Chauvin did to him. Seeing a man die in front of you makes a much bigger impact on you than just reading some account of it. But for that video, George Floyd's death likely would not ever have become a well known name nationally.

    We do hear more of the Black deaths at the hands of police recently in part because the Black community has in the last few years, and the last year especially, finally risen up in a more organized way and said enough is enough. They have made it an issue, and I don't fault them in the least for it. The question is, why don't we ALL make an issue of the abuses of cops that keep going unpunished?



    And hopefully we reach a point some day where unjustified killings and injuries by cops are extremely rare for all races and it ceases to be the problem. Most cops don't engage in that behavior, but today we still have too many that do.

    They should. And we can start making that happen by changing the overprotective rules for qualified immunity for cops and by providing for independent review of these incidents rather than just having the police review their own. Unfortunately both those things seem to be more controversial than they should be. Why many Republicans in particular oppose those things is beyond me.

    I have never said the Constitution is problematic. I admire the Constitution as a whole and have no problem supporting and defending it. But it is not perfect, and perhaps never will be. There are changes I would make if I could. I generally support the 2nd Amendment. But I also support some of the proposals out there to try to address the problems we have with gun violence in this country. I do not support the NRA's stance that every proposal that would cause any kind of inconvenience to gun owners is unacceptable. I think we need to take action to address all the needless, senseless deaths to guns in this country. I don't support taking guns away from anyone who legally has them, but there are other things we can do that may help reduce the death toll. To me, it is unacceptable to effectively say "it's ok for all those people to die so long as I'm not at all inconvenienced in with respect to my gun rights."

    Yes, he was, the first Republican president and I would argue the best one we have had. The current state of the Republican party is very sad. Trump did a lot of damage to it, and the sooner the party turns away from Trump, the better. If it can't do that, then I would support creating a new conservative party that doesn't have the problems of the current Republican party. Even before Trump, the Republican party had long ceased to really do anything for the average person. It has largely been the party of the rich and large business for at least the last 20 years. Neither party has done a very great job in recent decades of actually trying to support and expand the middle class. It's time someone did, even if we need a new party to do it.
     
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  13. John Roe

    John Roe New Member

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  14. stealthy1

    stealthy1 Active Member

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    @Tax Counsel ... I have only now had the opportunity to read your above post in its entirety and in a moment of peace/quiet. I always enjoy reading your well-thought-out and intelligent remarks. Thank you.
     
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