The UN is threatening to sue me

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GustavsGos

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I am running a website that posts trial transcripts that I process for legibility after downloading them from the site for the International Court Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia, here:

http://www.icty.org/action/cases/4

My website is here: http://ictytranscripts.dyndns.org/

I am having several problems with the ICTY and their website. Their first complaint was that I was posting pages that they had altered for security purposes at their website. I tend to ignore this complaint because it is simply irrational and certainly a legal absurdity to expect everyone on the internet to alter pages they have copied from a public site because the original posting has been removed for security purposes. Once you post something to the internet, you have completely removed the possibility of withdrawing said information from public distribution. Any security concerns about information you have posted to the internet are going to have to be confronted at some other level besides expecting everyone to act as if the information was never posted.

The second problem is that I have collected the transcripts that I have processed and compiled them into ebooks available at Amazon's Kindle library. They can be found here:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=ntt_ath...alias=digital-text&field-author=Paul Pikowsky

The ICTY complains that I have violated the terms under which they allow public access to their website.

Here is quote of the TIF file they sent me containing the letter:

Dear ...

It has come to our attention that you are selling at least sixteen volumes of a publication entitled "Trial Transcripts of the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia," on Amazon.com and its affiliated websites. This violates the copyright and conditions of use for the ICTY website, and the Terms and Conditions of Use of United Nations Web Siets. In pertinent part:

(a) The United Nations maintains this web site (the "Site") as a courtesy to those who may choose to access the Site ("Users"). The information presented herein is for informative purposes only. The United Nations grants permission to Users to visit the Site and to download and copy the information, documents and materials (collectively, "Materials") from the Site for the User's personal, non-commercial use, without any right to resell or redistribute them or to compile or create derivative works therefrom, subject to the terms and conditions outlined below, and also subject to more specific restrictions that may apply to specific Material within this Site.

We insist that you stop this practice immediately, and remove all of these listings from Amazon.com, its related entities, and any other website through which you may be selling ICTY transcripts, we will be forced to take legal action. We have also written to Amazon.com to inform them of this violation, and have requested that they remove your listings from all affiliates sites immediately.

Seeing that they have contacted Amazon, I contacted them myself,

Hello:

I am responding to your mail concerning violations of the use of your website and redacting posted testimony.

I am communicating with Amazon to see what their opinion is on this matter. Please rest assured that I am sensitive to issues of copyright and the reproduction of the trial transcripts posted on your site. I am happy to oblige the law, whatever it may be, regarding this matter.

....

Amazon replied, saying very little:

Dear Mr. Pikowsky:

We are unable to advise you in this regard. If you have questions regarding your rights we suggest that you obtain counsel of your own choosing to discuss this matter.

Regards,

...

Copyright/Trademark Agent
Amazon.com

Please notice from the link I posted to the transcripts I posted at Amazon that the transcripts are still there. Amazon has not yet decided that I am in violation of their terms and has not decided in favor of the UN's complaint to them. Since they replied to me, I assume they are going to leave things as they are.

Would anyone care to comment on this issue? What are the copyrights on trial transcripts? Do I have the right to publish these? And what is my contribution and how do I take credit for my work? Am I vulnerable to a lawsuit from the UN?

Any ideas at all would help.

Thanks in advance to any replies.
 
You should discuss thIs with a couple of copyright lawyers.
You might also discuss the matter with an international law attorney, or two.

This is a very complex issue.

Do you wish to risk your financial fortune (present and future assets) on the advice of an unknown attorney or lay person on the 'net?

Please, consult some attorneys ASAP.

I know the UN.

They will sue you, even if you stop.

You're in their target site now.

Be smart.
 
This is a very interesting question. I honestly don't have an answer for you at the moment. The works of the U.S. Government, federal and state (as well as any other applicable country) is different than that of the United Nations. They are not federal or state government. It's arguable that they are above the law (especially if you ask someone here in New York about parking tickets) and any battle you have with them will probably be substantial. If you deny that they have the right to prevent you from using what should be made available for free and within the public domain, then you may need to back that up with a legal opinion and potentially even go to court to ultimately decide the issue.

On some moral level, one might argue that the transcripts of international tribunals which are adjudicating those who commit crimes against "the people" should be free for use and distribution by the people, the group who ultimately funds all of these activities. In looking at the United Nations website terms of use, it's clear they consider this material their property and prohibit commercial use and distribution. They may even prohibit copying and pasting a transcript into email and sending it to a dozen friends. It's difficult to say.

The use of this web site constitutes agreement with the following terms and conditions:

(a) The United Nations maintains this web site (the "Site") as a courtesy to those who may choose to access the Site ("Users"). The information presented herein is for informative purposes only. The United Nations grants permission to Users to visit the Site and to download and copy the information, documents and materials (collectively, "Materials") from the Site for the User's personal, non-commercial use, without any right to resell or redistribute them or to compile or create derivative works therefrom, subject to the terms and conditions outlined below, and also subject to more specific restrictions that may apply to specific Material within this Site.


On the surface, if I'm Amazon or your webhost and I receive a DMCA takedown notice, I'd remove your product from my store and your site from my hosting company. I'd have no interest in bearing the risk and burden of being sued by a legitimate, well funded organization who also produced the material in issue. You may want to contact the Electronic Frontier Foundation are an organization whose door you may want to knock. This issue is far more palatable to them and others who might want to help as a human interest question, not a commerce question. So be prepared if this is all about making a buck instead of a point. Here is what the EFF does:

When our freedoms in the networked world come under attack, the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) is the first line of defense. EFF broke new ground when it was founded in 1990—well before the Internet was on most people's radar—and continues to confront cutting-edge issues defending free speech, privacy, innovation, and consumer rights today. From the beginning, EFF has championed the public interest in every critical battle affecting digital rights.
 
army judge, I'm sorry, but I really don't have the means to consult with an attorney. Furthermore, I don't think they have the law on their side here, international of otherwise. The whole reason they publish the transcripts on the internet is because it is a public trial and if the transcripts are not available for public distribution, the trial is no longer public.

thelawprofessor, The UN certainly has a right to its creative works, but I don't think trial transcripts qualify in this case. But of course, the real question is, what is the UN likely to do anyway? Given the behavior of the UN, anything is possible. Do they really want to pick on somebody like me? I'm just putting this stuff on the internet out of a computer in my apartment. I'm not making any money. The ebooks have only sold one copy out of all the volumes. I'm not Julian Assange or anything. I'll drop EFF a line
 
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As I said, from a moral standpoint, there might be many who would agree with you. What the law actually is and the cost to enforce the law are two completely different things. It's also why many say that true justice is only available to the wealthy and, in some instances, that may be correct. How many have the ability to have $20 million available at their disposal to defend themselves from the crime of stealing $50 million? But that's not what we're discussing here - just the facts of what you're likely to face.

What can the UN do? I have no idea. But they may shut down your eBook and your website and there may be very little you can do without spending a great deal of time and money. Your friend might also be the press but, as I said, as a human interest story it makes for better reading than someone seeking to sell these transcripts to make ends meet.
 
Well, if Amazon decides to pull my ebook, then that's really the end of that as near as I can tell. I don't see how they could pull my website since I am hosting it myself. But Amazon hasn't pulled my ebooks yet, and if they haven't yet, I don't see where they will. Time will tell.

Thanks for your interest, and I will keep posting back as things develop.

If anyone else has anything to add, please feel free.
 
Well, if Amazon decides to pull my ebook, then that's really the end of that as near as I can tell. I don't see how they could pull my website since I am hosting it myself. But Amazon hasn't pulled my ebooks yet, and if they haven't yet, I don't see where they will. Time will tell.

Thanks for your interest, and I will keep posting back as things develop.

If anyone else has anything to add, please feel free.



Gustav, is your website hosed in the US?

There are website hosts that are above and beyond US law, or even the power of the UN, for that matter.

What is your citizenship?

Not that it matters, but the UN does become less aroused about certain nationalities.

How deep are your pockets?

If the eBook isn't making you that much money, you might consider giving them away through your website.

Your supporters and enthusiasts could always be asked to tender a small "love offering" through PayPal!

There are ways around this problem.

The law does not always trump creativity and mother wit.
 
Gustav, is your website hosed in the US?

There are website hosts that are above and beyond US law, or even the power of the UN, for that matter.

What is your citizenship?

Not that it matters, but the UN does become less aroused about certain nationalities.

How deep are your pockets?

If the eBook isn't making you that much money, you might consider giving them away through your website.

Your supporters and enthusiasts could always be asked to tender a small "love offering" through PayPal!

There are ways around this problem.

The law does not always trump creativity and mother wit.

I am in California and I am a US citizen, a son of US citizens. I don't expect to make any money on the ebooks and would offer them for free on Amazon if I could, but that is not an option. I have considered offering them on the website I host at my apartment, but bandwidth is an issue. These ebooks are huge files, there are 16 volumes of about 50 MB each. I can only have so many people downloading through my basic DSL connection.
 
I like army judge's suggestion. You'd be surprised how much money you can get donated by putting up the eBooks for free with an explanation how you need funds to continue to make them available. That still doesn't technically beat the United Nations claim prohibiting distribution but it certainly creates a situation where they might not want to enter into a public relations battle with you. On a going forward basis, once the smoke clears, you can do what you can to recover your own expenses and make sure that it keeps the effort viable. You may also want to see what you can do to get hosting - some may offer it to you with the ability to provide traffic for them in exchange for sponsorship. If I told you how some others built a large business, you'd probably be very surprised.
 
Amazon has pulled my ebooks

Amazon has notified me that they have removed my ebooks from sale:

Hello,

We've received a notice from a third party claiming that the distribution of the following titles you submitted for sale through the Amazon Kindle Store may not be properly authorized by the appropriate rights holder:

"B006WU8R5MTrial Transcripts of the International Criminal
Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia, Volume 1, by Paul Pikowsky"
"B006X56TBKTrial Transcripts of the International Criminal
Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia, Volume 2, by Paul Pikowsky"
"B006X56Y0GTrial Transcripts of the International Criminal
Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia, Volume 3, by Paul Pikowsky"
"B006X5709KTrial Transcripts of the International Criminal
Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia, Volume 4, by Paul Pikowsky"
"B006X577SOTrial Transcripts of the International Criminal
Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia, Volume 5, by Paul Pikowsky"
"B006X9LY02Trial Transcripts of the International Criminal
Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia, Volume 6, by Paul Pikowsky"
"B006X9M19KTrial Transcripts of the International Criminal
Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia, Volume 7, by Paul Pikowsky"
"B006X9MUCITrial Transcripts of the International Criminal
Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia, Volume 8, by Paul Pikowsky"
"B006XJVMEATrial Transcripts of the International Criminal
Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia, Volume 9, by Paul Pikowsky"
"B006XJVPLKTrial Transcripts of the International Criminal
Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia, Volume 10, by Paul Pikowsky"
"B006XJVTQ6Trial Transcripts of the International Criminal
Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia, Volume 11, by Paul Pikowsky"
"B006XJVO9ITrial Transcripts of the International Criminal
Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia, Volume 12, by Paul Pikowsky"
"B006XJVQLETrial Transcripts of the International Criminal
Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia, Volume 13, by Paul Pikowsky"
"B006XMUOSCTrial Transcripts of the International Criminal
Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia, Volume 14, by Paul Pikowsky"
"B006XMURKWTrial Transcripts of the International Criminal
Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia, Volume 15, by Paul Pikowsky"
"B006XNJF1STrial Transcripts of the International Criminal
Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia, Volume 16, by Paul Pikowsky"

As a result, we've suspended sales of these titles, pending further investigation.

Below is the contact information of the third party who claims you infringed its rights. We expect that you'll compensate this party appropriately for any infringing copies sold:

Aryn Thomas
thomas2@un.org

We take violations of intellectual property rights very seriously. The submission of titles that violate third-party rights is a violation of our agreement and may lead to suspension or termination of your account, among other remedies. Please ensure that you own sufficient rights for all your eBook titles to publish them on the Kindle.

Best regards,

Robert F.
Amazon.com
Your feedback is helping us build Earth's Most Customer-Centric Company.
http://www.amazon.com/your-account
 
Here is my response

I responded to Amazon:

Robert F.

Please expect my full cooperation on this matter. You should know that I have made every effort to establish what authorization I had regarding publishing these transcripts. There is no way to contact Amazon directly, so I posted a question over at the Kindle Forums here:

http://forums.kindledirectpublishing.com/kdpforums/thread.jspa?threadID=16891&tstart=0

It should be pointed out that the content that I publish is trial transcripts and represents no other part of the UN's publications or web sites. Nothing that I submitted had anything to do with any creative parts of any of the UN's websites. The only thing that I submitted to be published was the actual content of the transcripts and nothing more. The transcript text as posted at the UN's site was completely reprocessed by me and this contribution was and is my sole claim and motivation for compiling the ebooks. Strictly speaking, the trial transcripts are simply a documentation of real events and have no creative content to them at all. Even a recording of a trial suggests a creative work not present in the written recording of conversation. If the formatting of the transcripts qualified as creative work, then my creative contribution removed and protects the original effort. The only thing that the UN can claim is the labor of documentation that creates the data involved.

The right to distribute trial transcripts is not original to this dispute, here is another discussion on the matter, this time regarding the Nuremburg Trial transcripts.

http://blog.librarylaw.com/librarylaw/2009/08/when-is-it-in-the-public-domain.html

As you investigate this matter further, I will expect further reports from you.

Paul Pikowsky
 
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